Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edward Manukyan

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus (default keep).JERRY talk contribs 20:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edward Manukyan

Edward Manukyan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Biography of young classical composer: Independent sources are scarce as are other indications of notability Tikiwont (talk) 09:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment. Sources are removed, please remove deletion notice. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wild firebird (talk • contribs) 21:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. There is nothing specificly wrong or false in the article. Please, remove the deletion notice ASAP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wild firebird (talk • contribs) 21:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. There's no problem with the article. Take it out of the delete list. It confirms perfectly with the Wikipedia rules 12.34.80.98 (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Aparrently no published material; not yet notable. Note: page content is also very heavily based on The Official Edward Manukya website. Ros0709 (talk) 12:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Neutral. I've carefully checked the updates since I first examined the article and have concluded that whilst it is true that he very much fails Criteria for composers and lyricists we do have published independent evidence of a minor concert performance and forthcoming CD release. Other articles have snuck into Wikipedia on less, so I am ambivalent about this now. Ultimately this matters little as this is not a vote but a recommendation to the reviewing administrator, and (s)he is going to have to be swayed, not me. Techincally, I still believe that delete is the only allowable result according to the rules - it just depends on how stringently they are applied. Ros0709 (talk) 17:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment.Well, thanks for that. I am sure that more relevant information will be contributed soon. Let us not forget that it is imposible to objectively determine the notability of a Post-Soviet composer without knowing the Russian and Armenian sources, the languages and cultures in which he is most relevant. However, I believe that all that is available at this point is more than enough for allowing the article to remain in Wikipedia - especially taking into account the potential updates, which depend on future events, such as concerts and publication of material.Wild firebird (talk) 18:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • More editing has been made Let's leave the composer's biography alone. Shall we? There actually IS a lot of published material, please do not post unsupported claims. 71.129.175.164 (talk) 16:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment. What is this published material? Please indicate where I can obtain sheet music or CDs of this composer from a recognised publisher (not the composer himself). I shall reconsider my delete if it indeed exists. (The obvious plagiarism of the composer's website would still be an issue - but that is not the justification for this AFD.) Ros0709 (talk) 16:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment. In this day and age many professional composers do not depend on publishing companies. Self-publishing is increasingly considered the best option for most contemporary composers, and mainstream publishing companies are losing business, just as the recording companies are. (Read this article: http://www.newmusicbox.org/article.nmbx?id=5011 ). However, this particular composer has a set-up date with a major orchestra for a CD and DVD production ( see: http://www.edwardmanukyan.com/music.html ). Destroying his entry seems a bit unfare at this time. If there is any plagiarism left, we can delete or modify them... but not the entire page. Wild firebird (talk) 00:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC) P.S. Here is additional data: http://www.newmusicbox.org/page.nmbx?id=10fp07Wild firebird (talk) 02:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment The world-famous composer Philip Glass is a self-published musician, and so are countless others. Publishing should never be an issue in such debates.67.131.201.50 (talk) 14:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Having said the above, I continue insisting that the article should remain in Wikipedia. The composer was an official "resident composer" with the Armenian "Renaissance" Chamber Orchestra (from 1999 to 2002). He holds a Master of Music Degree in composition, and in addition to his career in Armenia, he has had a number of concerts in United States as well, and his music has been performed by recognised orchestras. I also have a reliable conformation of a serious project with the Armenian State Philharmonic Orchestra, scheduled for this summer (2008), among many other project. Taking into account all the info I have provided, along with what is available from the composer's website and other sources, deleting this entry would be a vandalism. I suggest that we remove the deletion notice immediately. Wild firebird (talk) 01:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Reply. If it is demonstrated that one or more of the six Criteria for composers and lyricists have been met then the article should stay. At present I do not believe any has been, but I advise that you consider expanding upon those concerts, in the article rather than here, in order to satisfy the second criterion: Has written musical theatre of some sort (includes musicals, operas, etc) that was performed in a notable theatre that had a reasonable run as such things are judged in their particular situation and time. Future events require more care still - see Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Ros0709 (talk) 08:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Front page article in (fairly minor) paper plus other references seem sufficient that he meets notability guidelines. Multiple independent reliable third part sources and all that. Hobit (talk) 21:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JERRY talk contribs 01:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
  • weak delete I wish he were notable. I hope he becomes notable. But he is not notable yet. None of these are major musical groups. DGG (talk) 05:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Reply, See comment bellow.Shanongeorge (talk) 14:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. DGG, you are wrong. The "Renaissance" Chamber Orchestra, the LA Winds and, of course, the Armenian Phil (scheduled for a performance and recording - Sept 2008) are all major orchestras. Other orchestras mentioned in the article may be of minor significance, but the three mentioned above are all more than enough for him to meet the notability guidelines. Please, do a fair research before you post such a comment.Wild firebird (talk) 06:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Feeble Keep, presence of indepedent news coverage plus work with mid-level orchestras probably just tips him over the line. Lankiveil (complaints | disco) 13:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC).
  • Strong Keep, it's not only about the independent news covarage and the composer's professional accomplishments... the confirmed collaboration with a world-class orchestra such as the Armenian State Philharmonic Orchestra simply demands that this discussion be over.Shanongeorge (talk) 13:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Performances by major ensembles aren't part of any of the WP:Music notability criteria. Like Lankiveil said, he has a weak shot at notability from press coverage... but of the two articles mentioned, one (Roundup) looks trivial from the image. So unfortunately he doesn't satisfy #1 for musicians and ensembles either, which stipulates coverage in several articles. SingCal (talk) 06:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment If performances by major orchestras aren't part of the notability criteria, then the vote submitted by DGG(along with other arguments posted here) are irrelevant. My research, using the composer's name in Russian and Armenian (Эдуард Манукян, Эдвард Манукян, Էդվարդ Մանուկյան), found some more independent sourses supporting the composer's notability. It can be easily demonstrated from various sources that a concert tour of Armenia (of about 20 concerts) is to be undertaken by Manukyan and composer/conductor John Kennedy this summer, with the Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra. There have also been a few important newspaper reviews in Armenia (one by Aravot) which couldnot be found online. So far, not all paper media in the former Soviet republics have established consistent online presence. The cultural bias should be taken into full account. To me, this case is closed, and the article should remain in Wikipedia.Shanongeorge (talk) 14:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep I read through the whole discussion and it is my opinion that people here seem to evaluate an Armenian composer based on his notability outside Armenia. It hasn't been more than 5 years since he has relocated to California, and publications in US media may be a little scarce, but even before moving to US, the composer had a fairly public career in Armenia both as a songwriter and jazz pianist. There have been concerts in Armavir Red Palace, Yerevan Youth Center, Paplovok Jazz Club, the US Embassy in Armenia and many other venues... As a matter of fact, I myself created this original entry, which initially was a brief info about the composer. I might be able to find some reviews of his old concerts from some Armenian archives but I still don't think it's absolutely necessary. He does meet the guidline even with what has been presented so far. I don't see why people shouldn't be able to find information about such contemporary composers on wikipedia. He is indeed quite relevant in Armenia and has a growing success in the United States as well. Pantonal (talk) 01:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Apparently been detained in a murder investigation, and (if it's the same one) is a member of the governmental council in Armenia ([1]). I'm not sure if those are the same Edward Manukyans, though. The rest of the links on the Google search aren't very helpful. Master of Puppets Call me MoP!☺ 03:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comments, The composer, today, is 27. He couldn't have been 28 in 2003. So definately not the killer! )))) 67.131.201.50 (talk) 09:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Not even 27. He is 26. :)) Wild firebird (talk) 17:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Upcoming events, I was able to confirm that there will be newspaper articles and interviews with Manukyan relating to two compositions he wrote dedicated to scientists James Watson and Francis Crick, on the occasion of Dr. Watson's 80th birthday (Apr. 6). This page from the composers website gives a few details: http://www.edwardmanukyan.com/James_Watson.html Wild firebird (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.