Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dungeon Majesty

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete as the consensus appears to be after relisting. Mailer Diablo 08:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dungeon Majesty

Non-notable cable access show.--Crossmr 07:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Lol. I was just writing this nom. This is what I was going to say:

This article is a stub for a Dungeons and Dragons TV Show that airs on public access television in New York and LA. That's awesome, but there's no assertion of any sort of notability (per WP:NN, I guess, I don't know the particular standard for this). The author removed my prod (and the reprod by another). Alphachimp ^talk 07:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Keep this. It's a major cabel access D&D show. Within the community of TV D&D shows, this is the major one. Airs in LA and New York, as well as on the internet. If you have any doubts, see this [1] By the way, the essay referenced by AlphaChimp says this "This is an essay expressing the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians. While it can help explain and understand existing Wikipedia policies and guidelines, this is not an actual policy or guideline." Carfiend 07:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment as far as WP:NN goes, it mightn't actually be a policy or guideline but it certainly tends to be followed a fair bit. BigHaz 07:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

By sheep, maybe, but not by people committed to Wikipeida policy. Carfiend 07:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

watch your tone many people find that an offensive term.--Crossmr 07:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Chill. Read WP:NPA and think about what you're going to say before you say it. Insulting other contributors is not allowed on Wikipedia, period. Captainktainer * Talk 17:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

policy?? They should chill. Carfiend 07:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Moderate delete. 990 Ghits [2]. Never heard of Kubla Con, which doesn't have its own article -- while that's not the strongest point, I think it's fair to note it. Given that their main claim to fame seem to be web-based, it might be reasonable to apply WP:WEB, and I'm not convinced that they pass. Judging from the website, it's a public access cable show with about three or four episodes, which is what really settles it for me. May well be notable in the future, but I'd need some convincing. Luna Santin 09:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I've seen this, and it is remarkable. It is not primarily a web phenomenon, it's public access tv. Kubla Con should definately have it's own article btw. Trollderella 17:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

  We're not debating how good of a show, we're debating the fact that its not notable. Those google hits peter out at 237 and most don't look remotely related to the show, as a web phenomenon it certainly doesn't pass, and as a cable access show in only 2 markets, it certainly doesn't have notable exposure.--Crossmr 17:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but as pointed out about, the concept of notability is not notable. Or, erm, what was the word? Deletion policy, that's it. Notability is not part of deletion policy. Trollderella 17:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't point that out, Bighaz did. He also pointed out that regardless of whether or not its a policy or guideline people do tend to follow it quite a bit. They apply it to subjects that aren't already covered by guidelines like WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC and other notability guidelines. Lets also not forget its got a total of 3 episodes, which again would make it fail any kind of notability test. With such little exposure, this could be seen by many as just a way to try and advertise the show or gain notability.--Crossmr 17:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Notability is a pernicious myth. Let's follow policy - there is no reason to delete this useful information. Trollderella 17:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats your opinion. Others don't find it to be such a myth. In addition advertising is covered by policy. Were notability not considered, everyone could create a wikipedia article about thier pet project.--Crossmr 18:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not "my opinion" that notabilty isn't policy, it's a fact. Trollderella 19:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Its your opinion that its a pernicious myth. Not that its not policy. WP:NOT Wikipedia is not a collection of all human knowledge, therefore there must be guidelines on what can and can't be included. Wikipedia is not a Soapbox (Self-promotion) (which is policy) directly links to the Notability page. Policy or not, its relevant per that policy.--Crossmr 19:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:NN is an extension of WP:NOT, which is policy. A very large number of editors vote along lines of notability -- without notability, it becomes increasingly difficult to find reliable sources, at which point the articles are far more likely to contain original research, and fail to pass verifiability tests. Notability guidelines are the only thing between Wikipedia and a vanity article (or six) for every man, woman and child on this earth -- they're important. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information; if we include an article for every club, ever, the whole system breaks. So there has to be a filter, there has to be a line. We can debate all day about where the line should be placed, and whether this article is above or beneath that line, but I feel the line itself is necessary. How many hundreds or thousands of public access shows are there, in the US, past and present? The whole world? Can we afford to list them all? What's unique about this one? What sets it above the rest? I'm not saying there's nothing unique, I'm just saying I and a few others need a little more convincing. My delete vote isn't a vote against the show; I'm sure it's great, and I'm sure people enjoy it, and I hope they do. Luna Santin 20:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Your argument is well intended, but wrong. If an article is not properly sourced, then we should delete it. I see no reason to delete this public access show simply because you have issues imagining how we would deal with articles about other shows. Can we afford to list them? The simple answer is yes, if they are well sourced, verfied, and neutral. WP is not paper. Carfiend 20:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I could just as easily say the same of you -- well-intentioned, but wrong. :) Ad hominem proves little. In my eyes, this is one of the "other" shows. Well-sourced? The only source I see used is the group's own website -- the only claim to notability I can find in the article is itself an apparently unsourced statement. There's almost no content in this article, "this is a show, these are the five cast members' names. Trust me, it's notable. Here's some links!" Three sentences and a five-bullet list. Are you honestly proposing that a few hundred thousand articles like that are a good idea? Luna Santin 20:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, being a stub is not a reason for deletion. Let it be, and it will grow. I'm not judging those other articles until I see them. Again, notability has nothing to do with deletion policy. Carfiend 22:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Notability has everything to do with deletion policy. The connection has already been made twice for you. As for telling us to let it be, see WP:OWN. The article isn't yours to control. Its not being deleted because its a stub. Its being put up for deletion because other than a mention in a year and a half old tv show, its not even on the radar. One common theme for notability is being published in multiple non-trivial credible publications. You've got one with G4techtv. Blogspot, myspace and earthlink don't fit that criteria.--Crossmr 22:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

To respond to your points in order - notability is not part of deletion policy. There's no way to make it sound like it is. Someone above listed it being very short as a reason to delete it. I am not claiming to control the article. "I don't like it" is not a reason to delete it either. Carfiend 06:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

So WP:SPEEDY and specifically this part "Unremarkable people or groups/vanity pages." has nothing to do with notability? It has everything to do with notability, and this [3] which clearly states: "This category is a collection of possible criteria/policies/guidelines for inclusion or deletion of articles". Deletion is closely tied with notability. Whether or not its stated in full bold letters on the deletion policy page. In addition to that as someone pointed out there aren't enough reliable sources to build an article on becuase this is so far off the radar. --Crossmr 15:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, I thought that this was AFD, not Speedy deletion. I was under the impression that Speedy applied only to speedy deletions. Carfiend 00:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Speedy is part of the deletion process here, and notability is part of that. Thus your connection between deletion and notability that you were seeking. Also the second link I provided had nothing to do with speedy and all to do with deletion and inclusion and notability is mentioned throughout. --Crossmr 01:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Speedy is part of the speedy deletion process, but not, actually, AFD. That's quite clear. There are many things that apply in Speedy but not AFD. That's why there are separate policies. The second link you provided does not, unfortunately, provide a link to any AFD policy that says anything about notability. Carfiend 06:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Delete I'm not convinced that this has achieved enough notability to provide us with enough sources to write about it with a neutral point of view. My interpretation of notability is that notability exists to serve actual Wikipedia policies, and I think in this case we just can't source the claims that it's highly regarded, and I'm not certain we can be sure that it's aired where the article says it's aired. Captainktainer * Talk 17:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep There's plenty of evidence that it exists, and it looks like it has quite the following. Gravitor 16:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  Whether or not it exists is irrelevant. It is just an entirely WP:NN subject. αChimp ^laudare 16:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  Au contrair. As someone else pointed out, WP:V is the gold standard, whether or not it is 'NN' is irrelevant. Gravitor 17:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  No. The notability guideline is used extensively throughout WP:AFD. In almost all cases, an article can be verified but not notable. That's per Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, which is an official policy. αChimp ^laudare 17:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  But this isn't indiscriminate, it's very discriminate. Gravitor 18:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  Its not remotely discriminate. By saying this should be kept, you're saying anyone who makes a 3 episode cable access show should be able to have an article on wikipedia. Discriminate is setting notability guidelines for inclusion so that every idea for a show that was ever executed doesn't end up here. You'd end up with thousands upon thousands of articles with that criteria. That is indiscriminate.--Crossmr 19:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  I'm saying no such thing. I'm talking about this article, not the thousands of others that you are speculating about. BTW, we already have thousands upon thousands of articles. If they are neutral, verifiable and well sourced, that's a good thing. Gravitor 19:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  If you're not saying that, then this article should be removed. The sole credible source is a year and half old mention on G4TechTv, its had no other coverage by credible sources. Notability requires multiple non-trivial coverage in credible sources. This doesn't meet that. By ignoring notability, you are saying just that. Anyone could fire up a website for any cable access show for a few bucks and then base a wikipedia article off that. That is indiscriminate by not applying any other criteria to its inclusion and is a violation of WP:NOT.--Crossmr 19:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia:Reliable sources says that, not notability. Which, as has been pointed out, is not part of AFD policy. Carfiend 00:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

And the notability connection to Deletion has already been pointed out twice and in several places. The fact of the matter is notability is often used to decide whether or not articles get to stay here and this fails terribly.--Crossmr 01:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, people have pointed to things that are not policy, claiming that they behave as if they are policy, but frankly, the fact that you made a mistake before doesn't mean that you have to make a mistake again. Time to mend your ways! Carfiend 03:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Mend my ways? People have pointed to several things that are policy that reference notability. WP:NN also references a long standing precedent of articles being removed on the grounds of notability. As such notability is a perfectly acceptable reason to put an article up for deletion. If you'd care to address the issue of notability, I welcome it.--Crossmr 03:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no 'issue with notability'. It's not part of AFD policy. WP:NN is an essay, not even a guideline. Carfiend 05:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That is your opinion. That is why its here. Others have other opinions.--Crossmr 05:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not 'my opinion'. Notability is not part of AFD policy. WP:NN is an essay, not even a guideline. Whether policy matters may, in your mind, be a matter of opinion, but that's as far as the room for argument goes. Carfiend 05:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You've been shown numerous examples of notability being tied to inclusion and deletion as well as policy, so no its not.--Crossmr 05:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been told that it crops up in essays, in other policy that does not apply to AFD, and that people think that it should be, but I have not been shown that it is actually in AFD policy. To me, that means something. Carfiend 06:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to cut in late, but you still didn't address how this is not in breach of WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. I'm not sure you understand the boundaries standing between someone and creating a public access tv show (none). Are you advocating having an article for every single little thing that ever appears on a television? αChimp ^laudare 06:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about this article, which seems to me to be neutral and verifiable, and not to have offended against any wikipedia policy. Please remember that WP is not paper. Carfiend 06:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That's fine. its also not a directory. One thing to differentiate an article between being encyclopedic and being part of a general directory is notability. That is also part of WP:NOT. Almost anything can be neutral and verifiable (and no it wasn't neutral with statements like ...and Riley Swift - the dungeon master! it read exactly like a vanity page or ad. Which is what it is.). Neutral and verifiable are not the only criteria for inclusion. Some people feel that way, some people feel the other way and that is why were here. --Crossmr 06:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why "...and" is not neutral, but hey. It's odd that some people don't think that policy is important, but you're right, that's why we're here. Carfiend 06:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Because its not the proper tone for an encyclopedia. It reads like an ad or sounds like someone announcing something flashy. And yes policy IS important. There are more policies than WP:V and WP:NPOV. You just took the time to quote WP:NOT by saying its not paper, read the whole policy. You can't use part of it to justify the existence of the article then turn around and ignore 2 other parts of the same policy that would say it doesn't belong here.--Crossmr 07:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Mikeeilbacher 00:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks,--Crossmr 19:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per nom. Not encyclopedically notable. If the girls can ramp up their popularity in a major way, then maybe. But at the moment, less than 1000 ghits suggests that this show has not attained critical mass. Their youtube audience is pretty underwhelming[4]. True, the girls seem to have only tentatively embraced youtube, but 400-600 views per clip after 1 month is tiny by youtube standards (there are over 1 million youtube videoclip views a day[5]) Bwithh 20:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I'm pretty inclusionist when it comes to TV shows, but that doesn't extend as far as public access. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Cited sources seem to be blogs, forums, the show's own website, etc. I don't think it is possible to write an article about this that is anchored in published sources meeting the reliable source guidelines. When it is mentioned in something like Wired it will be time for an article. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

  comment it was mentioned on the Screensavers like 18 months ago, but that single mention I don't think brings it near enough notability. At least another mention or two plus some actual indication of viewership (i.e. big numbers on youtube) would be more in line.--Crossmr 01:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per above. Viridae^Talk 22:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per many above, especially Bwithh (no notability, on TV or on the web) and dpbsmith (no reliable sources). -- Kicking222 23:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.