Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dragon Kingdoms

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Babajobu 16:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon Kingdoms

Delete this article on a webcomic which does not meet WP:WEB. This article was listed as a PROD for lack of reliable sources and for not meeting WP:WEB notability guidelines. The PROD was also endorsed by a second user [1]. The PROD tag was later removed by an anon user because, as they wrote on Talk:Dragon_Kingdoms, "Comic Genesis is a major webcomic site" and "The Webcomic List lists many comics, including Dragon Kingdoms." Neither of these are reliable sources or signs that this webcomic meets WP:WEB. "Comic Genesis (formerly Keenspace) is a free hosting provider for webcomics ... there is no requirement to join other than having a comic to put up." "The Webcomic List" seems to list every webcomic submitted to them: "Get your favourite comic listed for free! If you want to see your comic or a comic you read appear on The Webcomic List then please enter the it's [sic] details below! ... Your comic will be added to the list straight away ..." [2] Dragonfiend 02:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep. Why? Because of the guideline that states: "7. Content that is distributed by independent online sites will almost certainly satisfy the first criterion." Comic Genesis, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is an independent online site, and if this comic should go, then there are dozens of other comics on this site that should be removed from the webcomic list section. Other reasons that support keeping the article. 1) The series has more than the suggested 70 comics in an 18-month period. 2) It ranks fairly high on a search engine. 3) It might be better to have a list within the Comic Genesis article of the more active webcomics on its site, than remove valuable material from this and other Comic Genesis sites. Again, CG may have thousands of comics, but very few of them are active. --65.32.81.3 02:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Note #7 of WP:WEB also states "Such distributions should be nontrivial. Although Geocities and Newgrounds are exceedingly well known, hosting content on them is trivial." Being hosted on a free site such as geocities, myspace or comic genesis is a trivial matter, and not a sign of notability. -- Dragonfiend 03:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
    • At the time Dragon Kingdoms joined Comic Genesis (which was Keenspace at the time, in April 2004), there WAS a quality requirement (that the comic happened to meet). Not just anyone could join. Part of the re-branding effort in 2005 was for Comic Genesis to be more open to the many webcomics out there, to the extent of registering domains, such as toonspace.com, among others. So, while it is now possible for just any comic to join, that wasn't the case. Also, Comic Genesis is hardly trivial- it isn't even stated in a COMIC guideline page that it is. Even if it is now, it wasn't then. --65.32.81.3 03:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Proof Comic Genesis never had quality requirements. You're thinking of Keenspot (which was the entire reason Keenspace was rebranded: People kept getting the two confused). Nifboy 00:26, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
        • History of Comic Genesis Comic Genesis had a major crash under the Keenspace name in 2003.
        • Revised to Keep In fact, before they officially started taking any submission that came across the street in March 2004, they were limiting submissions, so the site wouldn't crash again. My submission was in February 2004, at the time they said "We're limiting comic submissions at this time, but if you're good enough, we'll take you. Please submit the work that you want to represent your comic." The first work I sent ended up representing the April 9th update. The comic posted by Nifboy started in 2002, before the short period of submission limitations. Since I don't know much about Comic Genesis before the crash, I thought they all had to be quality works. Even so, it doesn't make sense to remove comics that were already being hosted before the crash due to lack of quality. Because, if CG was as delete-happy as Wikipedia is, there would probably be about 10 or 20 comic sites left on it. As mentioned, this community is a black eye in the webcomics community, to the point that it WOULD be best to take all articles down, and move them to Comic Genesis, Comixpedia, or any other webcomics-related community's Wiki. In fact, I think all these deletions are going against what Wikis were supposed to be in the first place. It doesn't harm a directory on webcomics to tell a little about each one, as said earlier, if long listings become a problem, BOLDly split them into other categories! If they are truly inactive comics, THEN consider removal. If they are poorly written (which I believe is the TRUE issue here), have them marked for clean-up. Otherwise, remove them ALL, and have the webcomics page be a links page to sites that host these comics. --Videowizard2006 01:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Alexa 33,878, which is respectable for a webcomic --Ruby 03:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC) Changing to no vote per Dragonfiend --Ruby 03:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
    • 33,878 is actually the Alexa rank for all of the thousands of webcomics hosted on the free Comic Genesis hosting service combined. If you scroll down to "Where do people go on comicgen.com?", you'll see that Dragon Kingdoms is not in the top 20 most popular webcomic on Comic Genesis, and it accounts for less than 1% of their Alexa traffic. -- Dragonfiend 03:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

If that's the case, couldn't the article be either on Wikimedia or the Comic Genesis wiki? Though it is strange that Comic Genesis isn't considered notable enough. Another possibility, rather than deleting every article in sight, is having the webcomic lists in genres. That way, the main page would still be readable, and people looking for comics of a certain genre can find them. Also, at the time Dragon Kingdoms joined Comic Genesis (which was Keenspace at the time, in April 2004), there WAS a quality requirement (that the comic happened to meet). Part of the re-branding effort in 2005 was for Comic Genesis to be more open to the many webcomics out there, to the extent of registering domains, such as toonspace.com, among others. --65.32.81.3 03:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per User:Dragonfiend. Adrian Lamo ยทยท 08:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per User:Dragonfiend. Sandstein 12:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per User:Dragonfiend. JoshuaZ 00:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per User:Dragonfiend. Nifboy 00:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per User:Dragonfiend. ergot 00:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Comic Genesis/Keenspace is the geocities of the webcomic world. Anyone can host their comic there, and yes, there's a lot of webcomics which need deletion, we've just not round to doing it yet. - Hahnchen 01:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom -- Zaron 19:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Cancelled - I checked hits in, and they aren't so great (fewer than 25 hits, not in the top five results for links in). And there's the fact that no one has even suggested transferring it to Comic Genesis' wiki (which I've already done) or Comixpedia. --Videowizard2006 21:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Revised --Videowizard2006 08:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Close to 500 webcomic articles have been imported to Comixpedia from this site. The decline continues. Though maybe not all of the imports are articles deleted from Wikipedia, I have a feeling a lot of them are. If "there's no way to verify most webcomics' articles" (quoted from Nifboy), why not take them all down? Just make searches for them redirects to the appropriate comic site. As I've already stated, it is pointless for Wikipedia to duplicate the existing sites' (CG and Comixpedia) Wiki directories. This also works because, like it or not, some notable webcomic authors (such as the one of Checkerboard Nightmare) already feel that Wikipedia is a useless source for webcomic information (which I unfortunately agree with them). I looked at the Secret of Mana Theater article (for example), and I fail to see what is so notable about that. Also, I don't know why 2-3 people can shut an article down. Having 10 votes is hardly a large enough sample from the community to allow an article to be deleted, especially when there is no way to check that 5 of these people are Dragonfiend's friends, a well-noted nominator of articles for deletion. This is supposed to be a site for everyone. If your article is simply a description of the characters and the comic's history, and not "LOL, go to teh forumz", or "My comic is da BOMB" what harm does it do to put the word out there? Also, Alexa is no longer supposed to be used as criteria for an article, yet that is what DF has been doing. In fact, I'm thinking about proposing a new standard for webcomics to end this fighting.

I feel that it is fine to have an article on your (or any) webcomic, as long as: 1) It has been around for at least 6 months. 2) It has at least 20 comics in those six months, 70 by the end of 18 months (if a weekly), or 15 comics in 18 months for a monthly. 3) It doesn't go around saying it's the greatest comic ever. It is okay, however, to mention improvements since earlier editions. 4) It at least talks about the characters, mentions the time it started and its website link, and should have some history. That's all. If it isn't well-written, mark for cleanup. If the comic becomes inactive (three months without update) for a long time (like RPG World), it should go into the Inactive list for six months, after which, it can be an AfD (Article for Deletion). Inappropriate articles can go into AfD or SD, depending on severity. Completed webcomics like Kid Radd would be exempt from the Inactive list, and would go under the Completed list. I don't know why we all have to keep fighting, keep arguing, and keep deleting, when there is a simple solution right here.

Finally, to verify, is it so hard to go to said website and look through the archives? I didn't notice anyone checking to see if the info was correct besides DF, which doesn't exactly instill confidence in me. --Videowizard2006 05:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment - Videowizard, I agree with you that Wikipedia's rules are too strict about what is considered to be a notable webcomic, but the truth is that is the rules of the site, and that is what we're going by here. This webcomic may or may not deserve an article here, but by the current standards it does not. I think your arguments are good, and deserve to be heard, but this is not the place to bring it up, this is only an AfD discussion. Try taking this up in the WikiProject Webcomics discussion, where it's not going to fall on deaf ears. If this article stays it would be an exception to this site's rules, so rather than try to preserve the article, see if you can get people to agree to change the rules. -- Zaron 05:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: Videowizard2006, I can understand that this might be difficult for you, having not only an article that you wrote up for deletion but having the article be about your comic as well. The only thing I can think to suggest is that you might want to read over Wikipedia:Verifiability and try to understand that we are building a reliable encyclopedia based upon reputable published sources. The alternative -- an unreliable encyclopedia -- isn't really a worthwhile option. It may also help to read over Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. For example, Wikipedia is not a place for advertising or self promotion, nor is it a web directory. Best of luck with your comic. -- Dragonfiend 08:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
      • So, you don't hate it then? I thought maybe part of the issue was hatred of the comic. Well, I've noticed somewhat of an increase in the comic's popularity recently, having been included in the 2005 Blank Label Webcomic Telethon, and the number of hits have steadily increased. Unfortunately, Comic Genesis doesn't make the number of hits a comic gets public, so it isn't possible to verify that the comic has done so. Maybe it's just a little early for this comic to get an article here. Would've been nice, though. --Videowizard2006 08:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I realized something. As far as I know, this is the first comic series based on a RPG Maker creation. I haven't seen anything about webcomics starting before November 2000 that are based on RPG Maker. How come being first isn't considered notable? After all, there's the first sprite comic, the first Flash comic, the first 3D comic, etc. --Videowizard2006 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.