Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Directorial debut

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is substantial consensus, based on cited evidence, that this is an encyclopedic term. Moreover the article has been substantially improved from its state at nomination for deletion [1]. The nominator makes a good point about overcategorization, but the recognition of this phenomenon by bodies within the industry tips the balance here. --Tony Sidaway 20:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Directorial debut

Directorial debut (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Overcategorization, trivial intersection Wildhartlivie 08:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete: I am nominating this page for deletion based on the guideline WP:Overcategorization (trivial intersection). The information that this page would impart is easily and more appropriately covered in individual biographies as well as an article covering film directing. Furthermore, each and every person who has ever directed has made a directorial debut, therefore the article is arbitrary, unnecessary clutter. Wildhartlivie 09:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as creator. It is notable and verifiable, it meets all Wikipedia criteria. It is a well used term of art in film. The New York Times, has an article on it, stating the history of the concept. It also has its own category. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 09:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: But that's not what it is. It's not an art term, it's just a notation. The NY Times article isn't about the concept of directorial debuts as a whole, it's about actors who become directors, which isn't necessarily the same thing. The problem is that while it may verifiable as a concept, it doesn't have the weight to carry a complete article. The term can and should be covered in each actor or director's biography page and the page for Film director which has plenty of room for that paragraph. This article can only end up being a brief paragraph and an arbitrary list of names & films. Already, the reference section is bigger than the article itself. Wildhartlivie 11:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: I should have been more clear. A "term of art" is not a synonym for an "art term". "Term of art" is more the specialized language used by someone in any trade, not just the arts. I don't even think this one is that specialized, I think most people would figure it out as self evident, but it still deserves a article. There are 1,151 uses of the term in Wikipedia, which I am wikifying. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 02:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep In all fairness to Norton, this article has only been up since yesterday, October 27. Wildhart nominated this 10 hours later. Wild! Mandsford 15:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - it's a familiar term, but it means only that a person has been a director. All directors have had a debut. I agree with Wildhartlivie -- rather than a term of art in film, it seems more like a catchphrase that writers use when describing a career. -- BPMullins | Talk 16:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep if the intent is to write encyclopedically about the subject. The article is about the phenomenon, not the term. It's a notable distinct phenomenon that people write about, analyze, etc. People do talk a lot about the general issue of first time directors, beyond the context of a single director's biography. It's very useful. The article will be expanded in time no doubt. But caution that this makes much more sense as an article than a list. A list would be as long as the total number of directors who have directed more than one film. A few useful, especially notable, or illustrative examples are fine, though.Wikidemo 23:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Notable concept backed up with ample reliable and verifiable sources to establish Wikipedia:Notability. The clear intention is not to include every film director, but those notables who have made the transition to directing. Alansohn 00:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The topic is notable. Chris! ct 02:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.