Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Derry, County Sligo

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. I'm particularly sensitive to BrownHairedGirl's and Iridescent's well argued cases for keeping this, and so I'm closing this as delete "pending the arrival of more verifiable information." The 1901 census data is good and establishes amply that the place exists as a historical and geographical entity; however it provides little context. Were this discussion on the borderline I would not hesitate to close it as a keep both on the basis of this slim context, and also of our history of keeping even the slightest of geographical stubs. However the argument has not persuaded the community in this case. There is consensus to delete the current incarnation of this article. --Tony Sidaway 05:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Note: non-admin closure. --Fang Aili talk 17:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Derry, County Sligo

Derry, County Sligo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Procedural nomination. This unsourced stub has been tagged for speedy & PROD for the same concerns, both of which tags were contested. For the sake of wider review, it's being brought here. I have no opinion on the subject, but the tagger asserts that: "This article refers to somewhere that is nothing more than a name on some maps, not even a collection of houses. To even call it a townland is pushing it." Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:01, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete I'm usually in favour of keeping pretty much all real places, but townlands, which can be under an acre in size and which there are some 60,000 in Ireland, just don't cut it. This would be roughly the equivalent of having an article on my backyard. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Question Judging by the townlands article, the size is very variable, "from as small as half an acre (2,000 m²) ... up to more than seven thousand acres (28 km²) " So how big is this one, is size or population? There isnt enough information in the article to tell.DGG (talk) 15:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
    • There doesn't seem to be a population per se. There may be homes or farms within its area, but it isn't a settlement or village. Note that it isn't listed on the county website's list of towns, nor does it appear on this really cool and detailed map even as a "village". The very name "townland" is confusing because it suggests the land of a town, but in reality it's more of a very small measurement of (usually rural) land. The townland article explains how the term came about. Note that none of this is to say that there aren't indeed some quite notable tounlands, such as Feakle, known for its music festival, and others. But not all of them are notable any more than every farm or yard in the US is notable. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete As I already wrote on the page: "As the article says it may well just be a very small townland and not notable, or only known to the locals. Have a look at this, though the data may well be identical to fallingrain's details. Also look at this result page and see how many Derry's there are in Ireland that are not yet on this disambiguation page. Either way, this should really get a speedy tag unless we can substantiate it better." ww2censor 16:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep as the editor who originally contested the {{prod}}. While I wouldn't necessarily support the creation of articles on every townland, I see no reason not to keep those articles that do exist. There's ample precedent in Category:Townlands of Ireland for such articles. Since this is a named geographic area, policy and precedent both point to keeping it, in the same way we keep all articles on their direct equivalent, Communes of France. (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lagarde-d'Apt for a virtually identical article; while I've expanded Lagarde-d'Apt slightly since the AfD, at the time of the AfD it looked like this and still resulted in a unanimous keep.) — iridescent 17:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment but there is no verifiable data that this place really exists, notable or not. I cannot find any evidence of it in any official Gazetteer, or other document issued by the Irish government stationary office or OSI, so unless you have a primary source for this townland, it deserves to go. Provide data and I will support a keep. ww2censor 17:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Iridescent, you say above I see no reason not to keep those articles that do exist. This article, however, was only created 6 days ago, with no further information than that it is a townland. --The.Q(t)(c) 14:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment Here's the 1901 census; search on Townland=Derry, County=Sligo and (while you'll get some false positives from Derrysallagh, Gortaderry etc), you'll clearly see that as of 1901 this particular Derry has 10 households for approximately 40 inhabitants. — iridescent 18:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
        • Further comment Also, don't know where that "it doesn't show on maps" is coming from - enter "Derry, County Sligo" as a search term on Google Maps and it comes up just fine. — iridescent 18:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Irish rural geography doesn't fit the patterns of countries like Denmark, where a concentrated settlement pattern arose under feudalism and is sustained to this day (the same applies to a lesser extent in many parts of England). However, the population of rural Ireland has traditionally been dispersed, and it still remains dispersed, so a cutoff point in a geographical hierarchy which makes sense elsewhere would exclude large chunks of the population of rural Ireland. To add to the differences, Ireland is almost unique in western Europe in having seen over a century of population decline in the aftermath of An Gorta Mór, particularly in Connacht which remains littered not just with depopulated townlands but with whole abandoned villages (some abandoned as recently as the 1950s). Laments for the emigration belong somewhere else, but the historical depopulation is highly relevant to an encyclopedia because while a recentist approach would prioritise places currently populated, it would also undermine the ability of wikipedia to accurately portray the historical geography of Ireland. Townlands are the building blocks of Irish rural geography, and we should have more articles on them, not fewer. The Derry, County Sligo article needs expansion and more references, but it's a real place in a county. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete As the original user who firstly nominated this article for WP:Speedy then WP:PROD, I submit this should be deleted, as I said at the time, "This article refers to somewhere that is nothing more than a name on some maps, not even a collection of houses. To even call it a townland is pushing it." --The.Q(t)(c) 12:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment A little history on this article wouldn't go amiss here, to put it into some context for others.
On 24-Jul-2005, Derry, County Sligo was added to Derry (disambiguation) as a placename in the Republic of Ireland (see this diff) by User:Henrygb.
On 21-Jul-2007, User:81.152.144.6 added Derry, County Sligo to the list of Towns and villages in County Sligo (see this diff). Two days later, I removed it from that list, with an edit summary of place does not exist (see this diff), as it was a redlink, and I had never heard of this town or village, and couldn't find out anything about it locally.
Approximately two weeks later, on 06-Aug-2007, User:81.152.144.209, started this conversation, giving a map reference to a placename called Derry, off the N4 road near Riverstown, County Sligo. The same user also posted similarly on the talk page of Sarah777. I used the map co-ordinates given to find the location on Google maps which points to a place called Ballindoon. Living in the area, I took it upon myself to originate some WP:OR, and, a few days later, I passed through the location, which is an unremarkable crossroads of two local roads. I took some photos, which I've just posted on Flickr (can't seem to upload to wikipedia or commons), here, here and here. These photos show what's at the crossroads, i.e., one house with some signposts.
On 31-Oct-2007, User:Egdirf created the Derry, County Sligo article. On 05-Nov-2007, I began the process of getting this page deleted, and here we are. Since this AfD started, the page has changed, and now appears to refer to a place near Grange, about 45 km away. Also, the links to the 1901 census above, refer to the same place near Grange. In my opinion, neither of these places is notable, and I am not aware of any reason why they should be included in this encycolpedia.--The.Q(t)(c) 13:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I am the user who created the Derry, County Sligo page, and also the anonymous IP mentioned above who both added it to the County Sligo article and posted questions on the relevant talk pages after it was removed. It was as a result of the discussion on Sarah777's talk page that I went on to create the article, having got the impression that the place exists. Obviously it's unfortunate if the article has to be deleted, but if it's not really that notable, and there's such strong feeling that it should go, then who am I to argue? Egdirf 15:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering, though, why hasn't it ever been deleted from the Derry (disambiguation) page in the two years that it's been there? Surely people have noticed its presence before now? If the article is deleted, then someone should remove the link to prevent further confusion. If it remains, the fact that it is there could (wrongly) suggest a need for an article to be written. Egdirf 15:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Comment I thought you may have been one and the same person, Egdirf, as the anon users, but didn't like to speculate. While I have nominated the article as strong delete, I won't be losing any sleep if it stays. I hope you're not taking this in any way personally, it certainly isn't. --The.Q(t)(c) 15:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry. I'm cool about it, and won't be too concerned if the article is deleted. There are lots of other things out there to write about. Egdirf 16:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete As The Q and I are the resident Sligonians here, I would certainly like The Q if he has ever been to or heard of this "Derry" - I certainly aint and I know pretty much all of County Sligo. I dont think it is a notable location/place - however, I could be persuaded otherwise.--Vintagekits 13:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
    • But don't you live at the other end of the county, Vk? My time in Sligo is mostly spent in the northern half of a county which is topgraphically split by the Garavogue, crossable only on three congested bridges. The time involved in crossing the river makes Sligo an unusually bisected county, in my experience it's quite usual for people from South Sligo to have less knowledge of the northern part of the county. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Not talking for VK (I wouldn't dare! :P) or where he may live, but I lived most of my life in town, and now live (for the last 6+ years) in the south end of the county, but would know the north part of the county quite well, and I've never heard of either Derry near Grange or near Riverstown. I've just got a new GPS (happy brithday to me!) and over the next few days, I'll have to try it out, so I'm going to see if I can find either of these places on it. More WP:OR, but who cares! --The.Q(t)(c) 12:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
        • I'm from town also but know the county well from playing music and football as a kid and teenager around the county. I never heard of either one in Grange or Riverstown.--Vintagekits 21:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete If even local residents are unaware of the existence of the place, it clearly is not notable. --lk 23:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.