Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denis Dutton

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Wizardman 03:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Denis Dutton

Denis Dutton (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Non-notable individual does not me WP:BIO criteria Ursasapien (talk) 05:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete If he is included then there is good reason to include an obscene number of others. What has he done? Plenty of others have founded webpages. Plenty of others teach at universities. As a philosopher what ideas has he contributed? The important question is, is Wikipedia to become some sort of Facebook? There are quite a few others currently in Wikipedia who have not done anything of significance to justify a biography. Unless Wikipedia becomes ruthless on this type of self (or friend) promotion Wikipedia is liable to be overwhelmed by 'Facebook' entries. I suggest delete and search for other candidates to delete. Their presence only encourages others to put in more 'Facebook' entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs)
  • DeleteKeep - I'm now satisfied that he meets WP:NOTE for academics. Good job in chasing up notability. Bullzeye (Ring for Service) 18:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC) The NY Times link in the article does not even actually mention Dutton by name. There are no other references. Bullzeye (Ring for Service) 05:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - the material in the article strongly suggests some indep sourcing shold be available. I am prepared to assume good faith that those who can find some material can get it in there eventually. Also, independent bits and pieces should fulfil notability. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) *05:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • If you can find some more indep sourcing on the man himself, I'd change to a keep. But independent bits do not by any stretch automatically confer notability; "trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." Bullzeye (Ring for Service) 06:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep - Seems notable, just need the sources fixed up. αѕєηιηє t/c 06:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Just curious, what about this person appears notable to you? He seems extremely non-notable to me. Ursasapien (talk) 06:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, the founder of Arts & Letters Daily is clearly notable, but I am concerned about the lack of sources.-gadfium 07:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
    Make that Strong keep' per comments from dramatic, and the new sources found.-gadfium 04:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
    What? Only strong keep? How about purple clusters at least? [1] [2] [3] [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk) 12:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
    Only your clusters are purple, I suggest you treat them more carefully :-) dramatic (talk) 20:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - His upcoming book has a reasonable sales rank for something which is still a while away from being released. This may indicate its/his importance. Also, his new website has already been acclaimed by the Times of London.
  • Delete DD's new website has not been acclaimed by the Times of London. I suugest that others follow the links. It has simply been listed. And along with other sites that show that the new DD site is full of nonsense. Regardless, plenty of writers have books with reasonable sales rank etc., (although 651,175 in books doesn't seem all that 'reasonable') and there are plenty of other climate change skeptics/deniers who have achieved something other than denial. This type of denial is likely to be a passing fad anyway, rather like hula hoops, or flared pants in the '70s. Evolution denial, that is, creationism (God did it) or intelligent design (someone like God did it), is a much more noteworthy reason for inclusion. Creationism and ID are likely to continue longer and do give people somewhat more to laugh at than climate change denial. The questions are: What has DD done that merits inclusion? And should Wikipedia become some type of Facebook or fan site for any blog writer who currently has a few fans? Do we really want to include in Wikipedia the authors of all 651,174 books that placed higher in sales rankings? If Wikipedia included every self promoter who wants the Wikipedia imprimatur to further advance themselves how many extra donations and resources will be needed to accomodate them all? If he actually does achieve something then, when he does, he can always be included.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Note: this is 203.214.15.223's 2nd !vote in this AfD Pete.Hurd (talk) 20:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Climate change denial? *rereads article* climate change denial? *sifts article history* are you sure you're commenting on the right article? Yep, your edit history suggests you are.. so this non-sequitor is just linking someone you don't like to unpopular views that he might well not hold? I'm having a really hard time following the logic, or is that intentional? Pete.Hurd (talk) 19:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Clarification for the hard of thinking. The comment re:climate change is, of course, not on the article but is on the claim that a new website on that topic is grounds for DD being notable enough for inclusion. I am sorry that you find logic hard to follow. As for the suggestion of malice for having views, I have had many good laughs at climate change denial arguments but the topic is becoming passé. I really think that DD's fans should aquaint themselves with the Wikipedia criteria for inclusion. He may be an amusing companion down at the pub but as far as inclusion goes, he is just not notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Nsk92 (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - would be notable simply as founder of a highly-notable website, but in this case there's also significant coverage in at least one reliable secondary source, this salon.com writeup from 2000. I found this with only a few minutes work; I imagine further searching could turn up more independent sourcing. Scog (talk) 12:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment - Here's a more recent write-up, in the context of his new website. Sadly, I don't have time right now to figure out how best to add this to the article. Scog (talk) 12:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - the Salon.com interview is sufficient to establish notability: creation of Arts & Letters Daily, editor of Philosophy and Literature, creator of Cybereditions. --D. Monack | talk 16:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest a Merge to Arts & Letters Daily, which is the principal source of notability here. He is only an associate professor, and there do not appear to be many sources indicating independent notability per the WP:PROF standard. Keep per the points raised below. Eusebeus (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge sounds right to me too. Note that this article seems pretty much a WP:COATRACK for the contest/flap with Butler, which has a closer association to Philosophy and Literature than Arts & Letters Daily... Pete.Hurd (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge seems sensible; Dutton is really only notable for A&L, not in himself. --Helenalex (talk) 22:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Stong Keep It will take time to sort out the most appropriate references from the 10,000+ google hits he gets. I oppose a merge because he is notable for multiple things:
    • Arts and Letters Daily - [5] gives a good sense of its notability.
    • Cybereditions.com
    • Being an outspoken (cited in NZ Parliament) board member of New Zealand's national radio broadcaster.
    • Being a prolific author and speaker on aesthetics and philosphy of art.
    • President of the NZ skeptics society (often in the news)
also note that New Zealand Universities have relatively few Professorial chairs - an Associate Professor is not equivalent to that title in the context of US faculties - it is about two grades higher. It will be easier to develop and improve this article than to have to recreate it from scratch. dramatic (talk) 22:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Very strong keep - very prominent and widely respected New Zealand academic. An author, his publications range from to articles in the New York Times and reviews in the Washington Post to contributions for encyclopedias. Also note Dramatic's comments- in New Zealand, "Professor" is one step down from "Dean", right at the top of the academic tree. Grutness...wha? 02:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Extremely Super Very Strong Delete with purple clusters, gold bars and silver bells but if not delete then merge – There are criteria for inclusion. The DD entry doesn’t meet the criteria. But clearly, DD has some fans. I suggest they copy the entry and start a fan club. The fans seem quite fanatical. I do not deny that he has fans and friends, and a flare for self promotion. However, claims for inclusion are exaggerated and show that fans and friends either have not read the guidelines or feel strongly that an exception should be made for DD. As for the awfully dramatic claim of 10,000+ Google hits… So what, even if they are all his (and they are not). John Smith gets about 4.7 million hits (and a statue). The fan club’s Denis Dutton is not the only Denis Dutton. The Google hits are not references to him alone. For example, there is a Denis Dutton at here who was nominated for two Primetime Emmys. Clearly more notable but without a Wikipedia bio, and I would say, also not notable enough. Another Denis Dutton is at here. There is also a disturbing element of parochialism in the special pleading for retaining the DD entry. NZ is a small country, 4 million people. International standards should still be used. There are lots of notable academic NZ residents and NZ born who are not in Wikipedia. And those that do have relatively tiny entries. Take Peter Phillips, one of the world’s best econometricians, for example (see [6]). Instead of wasting time with all these Facebook entries, and DD is not, by far, the worst I have seen, why not spend the effort on adding people who are notable? On the parochial topic, the NZ system of academic titles is the same as is used throughout the Commonwealth. NZ Professors are the same as Australian Professors and British Professors and those in HK and South Africa and so on. They are equivalent to Full Professors in the American system. They have chairs. They are not Super Professors. And associate professors, readers and more senior lecturers are about equivalent to the American Associate Professor. Lecturers and some less senior, senior lecturers are about equivalent to American Assistant Professors. In the last twenty years the status of academics in NZ and Australia has declined as various, previously non-academic, institutions have been turned into Universities and their staff given various academic titles. The new competition has necessitated ‘old’ Universities promoting more staff into higher titled positions. The Salon article is over the top and is not exactly written by an independent party and does not make DD notable. As for the claims about DD’s contributions to evolutionary psychology, lets hear an expert say that he has made a significant contribution. If he has, where are the refereed academic articles, in good journals, to support the assertion. I have never met DD. I imagine I would like him. I imagine I would be happy to have a beer with him at the Bush Inn. Now, have I been there or did I just find it on the web? He seems like a entertaining rogue. But notable? Not. Let’s maintain some standards folks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Note, this is 203.214.15.223'd 300th delete !vote in this AfD. Pete.Hurd (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Professor Dutton has, in his career, crossed a number of paths, some of the nastier consequences of which had been slanderously included in the article about him (prompting my clean-up some time ago). I suspect that our anonymous friend here has something of this motivation since the personal animus is palpable, and only poorly masked by these repeated bleatings about policy. I suggest that Ursap withdraw this nomination, since the article will clearly not be deleted; a civilised merge discussion can continue on the talk page. Eusebeus (talk) 18:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment This is all very amusing. I came across the DD page having seen many other pages of people who are not notable including some people I do know. DD I don't know. But a little investigation shows that he is not notable either. I tried to clean up his page, consistent with Wikipedia standards, admittedly I did add a bit of humour because a page on a non notable person invites humour and then I am accused of being a fan of Prof Butler's, someone else that I have no knowledge of. For someone who cleaned up the DD page to remove slander, you seem remarkably free to slander yourself. There is no personal animus. And if it was palpable your comment would not be required. Have you heard of argument ad hominem? Whether someone is anonymous or not it is their arguments that should be evaluated, not their alleged motivations. I am sure you can find this principle explained elsewhere in Wikipedia. As I said this, DD's entry, is not the worst example I have seen in Wikipedia of a non notable person entry. Some of these entries are written by the people themselves. I have seen pages clearly written by the person who uses their name to write them. These entries are a joke. Overall Wikipedia is a great concept and a great resource but surely it is not and should not become Facebook! The people who contribute are, overall, doing a great job. However, many of you do take yourselves far too seriously.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Nsk92 (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep. Full professor in respected university, founder of notable website, one of the editors-in-chief of a notable academic journal, author, coverage in secondary sources -- I don't think we're in any danger of descending to Facebook here. Opposed to merge because there are multiple sources of notability. Espresso Addict (talk) 19:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Not a full professor. DD is an associate professor. Founder of a website, yes. Editor (in chief?) of a non notable journal. Written a few books. Little academic achievement in peer reviewed journals. Vocal and, seemingly, a bit of a showman. Why exaggerate? Many fans, apparently. Probably a jolly entertaining fellow to have a beer with. Suggest set up a fan site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Nsk92 (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep One could argue about whether or not DD satisfies the requirements of WP:PROF (GoogleScholar produces very little but there seems to be quite a bit of coverage of him in conventional media sources, so that one could argue that criterion 1 of WP:PROF is satisfied). Regardless, I think that he does satisfy the requirements of WP:BIO as a notable media personality, a kind of Bill Nye the Science Guy media expert on literary matters. There is quite a bit of coverage of DD in conventional media that treats him in this fashion. NYT alone has a bunch of articles by him/about him/mentioning him, e.g. [7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13]. E.g., a quote from [14]: "Denis Dutton, a cherubic 56-year-old philosophy professor, has spent most of his professional career writing books on the theory of aesthetics and teaching Plato in New Zealand. But recently he has turned into a minor media celebrity, a cyberpublishing prophet who is invited to speak at e-book conferences from Los Angeles to New York." That describes the nature of his notability rather well. Nsk92 (talk) 20:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Checked all your links. Nothing new. Comparison to Nye a very long stretch. I can understand the reticence to delete (or merge), especially amongst those who may have worked on the entry. However, I have the advantage that I don't know DD. I have multiple nationalities and have lived in several countries, so I am not parochial. To edit you have to be ruthless. Not notable. Delete or merge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Nsk92 (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, DD is not as notable as Bill Nye. But WP:BIO does not require being a major media celebrity as a necessary condition for inclusion. being a "minor media celebrity" (using the words of NYT article) is certainly enough to satisfy the requirements of WP:BIO. In this case we have a relatively rare situation where notability is not just implicitly implied but explicitly asserted ("minor media celebrity") by a reliable source, like the NYT. Regarding the "nothing new" comment, I am not sure what that means. The links I provided simply go to demonstrate that the subject is sufficiently frequently mentioned by significant media outlets as a sort of media pundit on literary matters. Regarding your other comments, I can claim the same "advantages" as you. I also have lived in several different countries, I also do not know DD. I have not edited his article here in Wikipedia and have no beef to grind in the matter, either for or against DD. Nsk92 (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment Bill Nye is more a minor media celebrity than a major one. When there are so many gaps amongst the notables (or, if you will, the more notable) why waste time on the non notable (or, if you will, the less notable). Everybody is notable, to some extent. That's the idea behind Facebook. If you want a NZ based media celebrity who is not already in Wikipedia, how about Brian Edwards? [15] How about Judy Callingham? [16]—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Nsk92 (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - the only strong delete !votes here seem to be coming from one anon - the same one who proposed this for deletion. A quick check of Special:Contributions/203.214.15.223 is enlightening, to say the least - dangerously close to being a SPA. (SPA? The term should be used descriptively and should not be read pejoratively unless a specific non-neutral agenda is clearly established. ... New users acting in good-faith will often begin to edit topics in which they have an interest. Such accounts will warrant particularly gentle scrutiny before accusing them of any breach of official policies and content guidelines.) I assume that there is good fait in this nomination, but the vehemence of it (mely Super Very Strong Delete with purple clusters, gold bars and silver bells???) is worrying to say the least, especially since =some of the comments on this page suggest that the nominator knows the area around Canterbury University pretty well (Bush Inn?). And indeed, how about Brian Edwards (New Zealand)? Grutness...wha? 22:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment- What vehemence? How about sticking to facts and arguments? Surely you recognise that 'Super Very Strong Delete with purple clusters, gold bars and silver bells' is merely a parody of some rather silly 'strong keep', and 'very strong keep'? If there is no intention of following Wikipedia's criteria, why develop those criteria in the first place? Many years ago I lived in Christchurch so I know my way around. I was even in the country and that city last year. Clearly, some of you have some strong emotional attachment to this entry, regardless of it not by a long shot meeting the criteria. That has well and truly been demonstrated in the discussion, to any disinterested party. Why are you fellows so emotional? A bit like someone threatening to take a toy away from a small child. One small correction, I simply raised the point why the DD entry. I didn't nominate. I wouldn't know how. Why do you fellows take this all so seriously? Lighten up! Thankyou Mr Gruntness for adding Dr Edwards!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.15.223 (talk • contribs) Nsk92 (talk) 23:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
    • So you're saying that "Super Very Strong Delete with purple clusters, gold bars and silver bells" isn't supposed to indicate some vehemence in your opinion? And that it is somehow less emotional that a simple "very strong keep"? I for one have no "strong emotional attachment" to this article whatsoever - my own comments were based purely on the subject's notability within his field, and are totally in keeping with Wikipedia's criteria on the notability of academics. There is nothing emotional about it - certainly not in comparison to an anon making nearly 20 edits to this AfD, plus a further dozen or so to the article itself and its talk page. But you're right, my apologies, you were not the original nominator. As to me adding Brian Edwards' article, it's been on the NZ Wikiproject's to do list for a long time, so it was about time. And the name is Grutness, not Gruntness. Grutness...wha? 23:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • keep (changed from merge above) Nsk92 has convinced me that he passes the standard usually required at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Academics and educators for keep. Pete.Hurd (talk) 03:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Evaluating the notability claims Everyone is notable to some extent, in the same way that everyone is special. The important question to be determined in this discussion is, is DD notable within the commonly accepted meaning and within the Wikipedia criteria for a biographical entry? I suggest that he is not, so let’s examine the claims for the areas in which it is suggested he is notable.

First, is DD notable as an academic? No.

He has a rather pedestrian academic publishing record for an associate professor and is not recognised as having contributed any notable ideas in any area. This can be ascertained simply by looking at his own list of his most important publications. If this is disputed where is the leading scholar who says differently? The journal he founded and edited is not notable amongst academic journals. Indeed, it is more a magazine than a serious academic journal. If this is disputed where is the leading scholar who says differently?

Second, is DD is a notable web entrepreneur? No.

Admittedly Arts and Letters has a following but so do various community newspapers, specialist publications, webpages and blogs. Arts and Letters aggregates and provides links expected to be of interest to the webpage’s readership. In this respect, it is much like any of a very large number of local newspapers which consist largely of material created not for the newspaper but by others, elsewhere, and initially, for others. Also, not exactly unique as a webpage. Meritorious yes, but notable no.

Cybereditions is not a new or original idea, has not been a roaring success, does not have an impressive list of titles, and has been done better and more successfully by many others - Amazon.com, for example.

Climatedebatedaily is but one of a myriad of other such offerings and only started recently, at a time when that debate, in the mainstream at least, is well and truly over. In comparison, AnswersinGenesis [17] covers another area where rational debate has concluded but is more notable because a large polity in the USA seems wedded to the irrational side. It is also a leading site amongst Creationism exponents.

DenisDutton.com is not at all notable, there are an obscene number of such offerings, and blogs, on the web.

Third, is DD notable as a notable libertarian media commentator/activist? No.

There are plenty of notable libertarian media commentators/activist that are, and were, notable for other things before they became commentators. Gary Becker and Richard Posner, for example, to name just two. As for media commentator/activist, or commentator/activist, starting a few organisations of little if any note, there are so many people, even in NZ, who have done this that this is just not notable. Being on the board of RNZ is no big deal. Writing a report criticising alleged failings of a public broadcaster is also not notable. Allegations of bias and of failings made against a public broadcaster (and against private media) are so common in any country that they are certainly not, of themselves, notable.

Fourth, is DD notable for controversy or some controversy? Not really.

This is an area in which DD appears to have worked particularly hard in to try to become notable. The ‘bad writing’ contest which seems to be what DD is most well known for, did, apparently, ‘briefly become a cause célèbre in the world of academic theorists’, although still not sufficiently to make him notable.

On the topic of ‘bad writing’, criticism and controversy, now I am not going to claim that the following analysis is not a cheap shot but it does show that the game of simply critiquing is one anyone can play, and is rather easy. Take for example this sentence from the first paper in the online sample (Philosophy and Literature 29.1 (2005) 1-23) of the journal DD edits:

  • An evolutionary view is revolutionary, in that it rejects the taken-for-granted, the apparently (locally) true assumptions about human nature; it adopts a larger, more comprehensive vision; it makes possible genuine and valid interdisciplinarity, through a connected, coherent, cumulative, and relentlessly self-critical body of knowledge, and not the kind of interdisciplinarity that is just a dilettantish smorgasbord (a dash of chaos theory or quantum physics here or Lacanian pseudo-psychology there); and it historicizes, it provides a genuine historical vision, that takes into account both immediate and long-term causal factors.

First, the sentence is long, just as the Butler sentence is long. But more importantly, isn't it possible to make a similar point to the one 'George Meyer' makes in an episode of the Simpsons: "Aren't these just buzzwords that dumb people use to sound important?" Don't "larger, more comprehensive vision", "genuine and valid interdisciplinarity", "connected, coherent, cumulative, and relentlessly self-critical body of knowledge", "dilettantish smorgasbord", "genuine historical vision", and "immediate and long-term causal factors", although grand sounding, involve rather vacuous descriptors? Do they tell the reader something or are they so vague that they are open to claim that they are just meaningless phrases that dumb people use to sound important? Isn't the sentence really equivalent to "I don't like Lacanian psychology and associated critical theory?" And if it is, so what? Does this qualify as academic scholarship? I think not.

Rather than publishing this paper in an obscure, non notable, journal, shouldn't the editor (DD) have nominated it for a 'bad writing' award?

Butler, in her NYT response to her award, accuses DD of using the 'bad writing' award to take pot shots at those whose political philosophies he takes exception to. The evidence suggests that she is right.

Now it so happens that I am far more likely to hold views more in common with DD than Butler (for example, I am not a great believer in relativism, and when I was a student I was frequently accused of being ‘to the right of Attila the Hun’, whatever that means, and I used to enjoy ridiculing the vacuous arguments of those with a 'left' orientation, a bit childish I admit, given they are such easy meat) but academic scholarship is supposed to involve more than "I don't like x". It is supposed to involve original contributions, original ideas, supported by tight arguments and evidence - more than simply the recycling of derivative ideas, and empty invective against ideas or people you don't like. Now just because my political persuasion is somewhat different, I think it only fair to give Butler her due, clearly she is one clever woman and although I do not have the requisite knowledge to understand the technical material she writes, I would be very surprised if it does not count as scholarship. If it does present serious ideas that one disagrees with, one should engage and critique them with serious analysis. If it is all nonsense one should demonstrate it. Simply saying it is all nonsense is rather lazy and is not good enough for academic scholarship.

Within critical theory schools, which I really know nothing about, I imagine that there is a deal of pretension. I think the efforts of Alan Sokal well and truly demonstrate that. (In fact I intend to get around to purchasing and reading his book, which I expect to enjoy.) But, to be fair again, there is considerable pretension throughout the 'Arts' and beyond. I am not blind to considerable pretension amongst those who have views similar to mine, and even occasionally I manage to see my own pretension. Being able to see flaws and pretension in your own arguments and in the arguments of those whose conclusions you agree with is an important part of critical thinking.

To summarise, DD is not a notable academic, not a notable web entrepreneur and not a notable libertarian media commentator/activist. He is not notable as a jack of several trades. Plenty of others, Herbert Simon for example, are notable in several different areas, so there is no need to make someone who is not notable in any area, notable, simply because they do more than one thing. In short, DD is just not notable.

And just because you like someone, or like their views, or think they are a jolly good fellow, does not, in itself, make them notable.

--203.214.15.223 (talk) 16:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

  • An articulate and spirited expostulation of your views elaborated in the best Socratic tradition. Since you are clearly not going to win this battle, however, may I urge you to take your obviously prodigious talents and apply them usefully elsewhere to the project? Mr Dutton's meagre accomplishments seem beneath your intellectual dignity at this point and you will find, if you have not already, that Wikipedia has a serious problem discriminating between notable and newsmaking. This later is inevitably confounded with the former and that fact is that for most of us Delta editors a reference in the NYT or other rag is enough to dazzle us into a conviction of notability. This will be kept; it could later be merged. But it is highly unlikely to be deleted, no matter how vigorously you present the evidence adduced. Eusebeus (talk) 17:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Both the Arts&Letters website and DD himself are notable because they received substantial coverage by independent sources in mainstream meadia. The same cannot be said about an average blog or a facebook page. Look up WP:V. It is irrelevant for the purposes of deciding if DD satisfies WP:N if his notability is well deserved. The fact that substantial independent coverage exists is the primary relevant consideration. Here is a quote about DD from an article in Time magazine: "A few years ago, Mathew Gross, 32, was a free-lance writer living in tiny Moab, Utah. Rob Malda, 28, was an underperforming undergraduate at a small Christian college in Michigan. Denis Dutton, 60, was a professor of philosophy in faraway Christchurch, New Zealand. Today they are some of the most influential media personalities in the world. You can be one too."[18] When a Time article calls a person one of "the most influential media personalities in the world", that fact alone closes the case regarding whether or not that person satisfies WP:N and WP:BIO. But in this case there is more. There is a NYT article that I cited above that calls DD "a minor media celebrity, a cyberpublishing prophet who is invited to speak at e-book conferences from Los Angeles to New York." [19] Again, it is quite irrelevant if the judgement of the journalist who wrote this is correct or if DD has earned it. The fact that they wrote it is what counts for determining notability per WP:N and WP:BIO. A few other quotes from mass media. USA Today: "Human beings, by and large, don't know what they're interested in," says Denis Dutton, a professor in New Zealand who started and edits the highly acclaimed Arts & Letters Daily, perhaps the most eclectic, serendipity-driven Web site out there."[20] Here is another one from Guardian: "Arts & Letters Daily should be, Prof Dutton promised, "the place people would like to look at every day, just to see what was new in the world of the arts or ideas". The popularity it now enjoys would suggest he has been good to his energetic word. Today, the site claims more than 2.5 million page views a month - with Britain supplying the second-most users after the US - and a name recognition second to none among the internet's cornucopia of sites cobbled together by other academics, a majority of whose weblogs would typically measure reader numbers over an entire year in the high hundreds at best."[21]. Nsk92 (talk) 17:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep To judge by what we personally think of the work would show ignorance of encyclopedic standards. We are laymen, and we accept the demonstrated judgment of the experts in the field (just as we accept the judgment of reviewers for books, of critics for actors). The main notability is in connection with Arts and Letters Daily, a very notable website . His own personal importance is not as great, tho we do generally hold that the editor in chief of a really notable scholarly periodical is notable. In this case he's co-editor in chief. and also co- founder. That is probably enough by itself in my opinion. Buy he was also editor of a scholarly journal,Philosophy and Literature -- a very controversial journal, but that makes him all the more important. Not really noted for his philosophy, but certainly for his academic journalism. What anyone here may think of his political or philosophical or literary views is irrelevant. Eusebeus and Nsk has it right. DGG (talk) 01:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply "To judge by what we personally think of the work would show ignorance of encyclopaedic [proportions]. We are laymen, and we accept the demonstrated judgment of the experts in the field (just as we accept the judgment of reviewers for books, of critics for actors). and What anyone here may think of his political or philosophical or literary views is irrelevant."

My points exactly, and what I have been consistently arguing throughout. Where we differ is on who we think are experts. Journalists are not experts simply by virtue of being journalists. They may be experts for other reasons. Newspapers, magazine, and various other media are by no means authorities. Although their believability does vary, even the best contain fanciful nonsense and are regularly deceived by those who have an agenda. Plenty of people earn a very good living principally for the services they provide in deceiving the media. I must admit that when I was young and more callow than I still am now, I used to think "if it is in the newspaper it must be true".

As for the often pseudo-scientific methods used to evaluate citations... They are, indeed, laughable. Eight or nine years ago a friend and I decided to have a look at which economics journals the Social Sciences Citation Index ranked as being the best. We were most amused to find that the clear and easy winner, based on their formula, was The Economist magazine! Now although The Economist is a good read, it too frequently contains nonsense and, more importantly, it is not even a journal. Any citation in The Economist should be given a relative weight close to zero. Following this discovery, we took the data on citations from articles in one journal to another (including those involving The Economist) and we used what appears to be the best method for numerical evaluation of citations to estimate weights of journals based on the implicit hierarchy in the data. In the journal ranking based on this, The Economist had dropped from sight. The ranking of journals at the top made sense and were relatively consistent with the ranking evaluations of experts. Unfortunately, even this apparently best numerical method is not foolproof. We tried it on some other disciplines and found that there were cases where the ranking results were complete nonsense.

On a similar point, in the past, when I have had to do a literature search, I tried, a couple of times, to use our librarian (I always prefer someone else to do the work where possible). The results were several inches thick of printouts, almost completely dross and the few nuggets found not worth the effort. As a consequence, if I do need to do something like that now I always do it myself. When people who don't know what they are doing try to evaluate things where they don't have the requisite skill, or knowledge, or capacity, the result is always amusing. Once I had the pleasure of watching someone who is colour blind sorting bottles into green ones and brown ones. Unfortunately, the bottles he was attempting to sort had already been sorted. They were all brown. He had seen other people doing similar sorting, and, although he is colour blind, he thought he had worked out how to do it. Most amusing!

As for who I try to convert, I don't try to convert anyone. I don't try to convince my opponents and don't try to convince the audience. Whether they are convinced or not is not entirely in my hands and if convincing them was my objective I would use sophistry, not rational argument, as sophistry is more effective. That said, I do hope to convince any independent, intelligent, disinterested person. Debate can be fun, as long as you don't take it, or yourself, too seriously. --203.214.3.114 (talk) 06:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.