Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Rutstein

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. -- RG2 01:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Rutstein

David Rutstein (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

WP:BIO, WP:COI, WP:OR, WP:RS. Page reads like an autobiography, or either written by associate, complete with OR analysis and acclaim of the subject. Subject of the article has managed to draw attention to himself and google hits (not that hard when you are a self-described Search engine optimization wizard), but not enough RS to legitimize the article which is also based on the subject's own websites/psuedo-blogs. Page reads like an advertisement, and another way for the subject to draw attention to himself and his business. Subject has not contributed much to main subject except rehash material already widely available elsewhere. Creator of article, seems himself very familiar in SEO and loads the talk page with additional 'discussion' that would obviously not pass on the main page. Shuki 21:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

More: After browsing through several of the links on google, it's unclear who this subject

really is, and if WP is merely being used to create or strengthen one version of this person. --Shuki 23:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep The guy's notable enough, but all the advertising bits need to be trimmed, and it needs some proper sources. GlassCobra 21:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, then Merge contents to Yitzhak Rabin assassination conspiracy theories. Seems to be nothing more than a violation of WP:COI (the former WP:VANITY) by User Conspiracy Nutjob (talk · contribs). IZAK 02:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletions. IZAK 02:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 02:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Okay, I've improved the article pretty significantly, I think. Any thoughts? GlassCobra 02:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Better, some WP:BLP violating material was removed along with the COI material and the assertion of notability is clear. Independent sourcing is now a single news source, two articles. Is this a reliable and independent source? I have no clue for this area. GRBerry 02:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
      • What makes Rutstein a truly notable person? IZAK 03:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Right now there's a source on Rutstein's slander lawsuit that seems to give him substantial coverage, but right now the evidence that he was famous for other things seems to be rather thin. There are sources on the video, but saying the video made him well-known in Israel is different from saying he was casually mentioned. Because of the slander lawsuit coverage he may well be independently notable, but I find myself wary of overpromotion and looking for a second independent source that gives him substantial coverage. Best, --Shirahadasha 05:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. There doesn't seem to be anything worth merging. Rami R 10:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The guy is severely interfering in Israel government's plan to whitewash this controversy. If you read his home page you will see some of the details. David may actually pull off the seemingly impossible which is to have the Israeli government tell the truth. Public opinion has changed dramatically here. His 4 hebrew web sites yigalamir.com, shimonperes.net, yitzhakrabin.co.il, yitchakrabin.com are all at the top of google. This discussion and these words are not allowed on the hebrew wiki. Apparently the government has people there in high places. What Rutstein has accomplished and trying to succeed at is almost unbelievable. Conspiracy Nutjob (talk • contribs) 15:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
    • commentAdding WP:BLP1E and WP:V CN, your reason is still OR and speculation. Rutstein has not accomplished the things you claim and you have not provided any sources crediting him with these 'accomplishments'. You also seem to be basing the article on what might happen. --Shuki 18:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

1.Rutstein caused Peres to loose the primary.http://www.shimonperes.net/davidpage/davidpagefiles/David_kneset.htm http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3161933,00.html.. A politician tends to lose election when the owner of shimonperes.net gets front page headline by invited shimon peres to sue/arrest after calling shimon a killer in the most graphic manner 2. Rutstein sued Peres for slander yet owns shimonperes.net (number 4 in google for "shimon peres" in hebrew) and is has pictures, cartoons, etc. calling peres a killer. 3. Rutstein's web sites and bringing videos public were the impetus for changing public opinion regarding Rabin murder conspiracy. 4. There is a tremendous feeling among israelis that "the leaders are all corrupt", Rutstein exposing Rabin murder has caused this. I could bring you the poll numbers but I am sure that you know what I talking about. 5. The plan of the Israeli government is to free Yigal Amir within a specific number of years. Rutstein is interfering with their plan. (this point may seem controversial, but I am sure that after analyzing the stuff online you will come to the same conclusion) 6. To create front page headlines in bbc, cnn, etc. is hard .. but Rutstein's actions have gotten us 75% there. Conspiracy Nutjob 22:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

here is a hebrew language article that mentions his web site.. last week in the haaretz.co.il, the marker and print newspaper(haaretz is the country's 3rd largest news group) http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=911943&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

  • commentHere is an article in today's nrg.co.il (israel's second largest news source) with a picture of david on the front page of the site http://www.nrg.co.il/online/10/ART1/649/928.html ... the article has a picture of david with his phone number there as well.. this guy is not hard to reach..to get this material to the top of the israeli media is not an easy task.

here is the israeli national news writing an article that quotes david exclusively,, and makes links to all his web sites, etc http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123871 Conspiracy Nutjob 10:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

  • comment This is getting hysterical, actually sad. CN, you seem to not even be reading the comments here or care about WP standards either. And now your lies are more exposed. It is a known fact that Barry Chamish broke the story about the inconsistancies of the official version, about 12 years ago. Rutstein appeared out of nowhere only a couple of years ago, as if created for one purpose only see WP:BLP1E. The rest of your claims about Rutstein are fantasy or merely your own speculation about the future. Rutstein is not contributing anything substantial to any 'cause' because his actions are seen as those of a lone whacko frankly doing damage to all sides of the controversy. --Shuki 10:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • comment There were four books written on the subject. Plus Chamish was giving lectures to small groups for years. He moved out of the country over a year ago. These books and activities did not make such a dent in the israeli governments plans. Rutstein's web site, videos, etc are making the israeli government make mistakes. Check out today's israelinsider.com, http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12273.htm , article on the "new, improved" rabin murder video released by ynetnews.com.. and then you will understand what I am talking about. Conspiracy Nutjob 10:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
    • CN, you're still keep reiterating your own feelings and analysis. It's like your using the old 'repeat something many times and people will believe it' technique. You know, that's similar to how SEO operates into improving page links on Google; increase the embedded links, open multiple websites linked to each other. Anyway, the link you posted does not mention Rutstein and your claims that the government is reacting or rather has changed any policy because of Rutstein is ludicrous. You've yet to post anything from ANY source substantiating your personal claims to the importance of Rutstein. Getting mentioned in the media does not mean someone is notable. --Shuki 12:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • comment to Shuki, Actually, the repeat something often is the israeli government technique (as if you have not noticed). The article above by IsraelInsider has the link to israelnationalnews.com article of last week that has links to Rutstein's sites and quotes Rutstein. As well, the Israelinsider article has link to kempler video that Rutstein made public and posted everywhere (including Google video, which the article links to). The fraud video by Israeli government and Ynet that israelinsider deciphered was made public because rutstein's web sites are all at the top of google and the general public is is finally being the fraud via the internet... This was Rutstein's goal 2 years ago and it is happening.

As well, the israelinsider mentions the incitement and blaming of Shimon Peres. The author is actually talking about Shimonperes.net which is rutstein's web site. It seems that the israeli government has not gotten wind of this debate on wiki. If they did they would be sending their troops here. Shuki, take it easy, Rutstein is notable and continues affecting the history of the state of Isreal. Thank You.

We are debating this in english, but the real stuff is in hebrew. But the government has loyal agents in place on the hebrew wiki... So the main wiki exposing is happening on english wiki. Conspiracy Nutjob 16:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

    • So now you're saying that you're using the English WP in order to push a WP:POINT? We aren't debating anything other than David Cohen who has been renamed Rutstein, (why?) and whether he has contibuted anything to the advancement of anything besides, alledgedly, republishing one video clip aka, Kempler video. (I wonder how he got it? Perhaps, he's an agent himself?) Until now, you still have not provided anything showing that Cohen/Rutstein is credited with anything. --Shuki 21:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

(israel's largest news company) and rutstein gave his name as cohen because rutstein was afraid. Afterwards, the fear factor subsided. Now rutstein claims that there is nothing to be afraid of. Rutstein also made public the miriam oren video http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/114729, sued peres to cause his to loose election... and has used high ranking web sites in google to change public opinion and endanger government plan of lying to public and freeing convicted assassin. Not bad. Conspiracy Nutjob 08:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

    • You still have not posted a reference attributing Peres losing the primaries to Rutstein as you claim. You have not posted any reference to back up your claims that Rutstein, who is unknown in Israel, has changed anything. Chamish wrote a book that sold tens of thousands of copies in different languages and was invited to parlour meetings around the country by different sectors of Israeli society. Rutstein posted a video on the internet? I think that many more people have posted many more videos than that on youtube, but it does not warrant a WP article on each one. It seems you are still unclear on the what wikipedia is about. This wiki is not for dissemenating personal news and information. It is a virtual (online) encyclopedia with specific standards of what can be posted, what is relevant, and how to post it. WP does not like when people exploit it to push their opinions and propaganda. I put up a 'welcome' on your talk page several days ago. It would be productive if you would read the guidelines of what WP is about. --Shuki 19:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
    • rebuttal to Shuki: Peres was leading by 30 points in the Labor primary. Matan Vilnai, who was polling in 3rd place pulled out and supported Peres. The Ynet (Israel's biggest news group) article hit the news 10 days before the vote in which Rutstein calls Peres a killer, posts bloody pictures of Peres, owns shimonperes.net, etc. and suddenly Peres looses a 30 point lead. Of course the story got picked up throughout the print media and TV. By the way, the story was also printed in the labor party newspaper. here is one of the links to the hebrew articles that rutstein appeared in the labor party. http://www.shimonperes.net/davidpage/davidpagefiles/peres_loses.htm which has the explanation in english. People don't tend to vote for a guy who is being blamed for the murder of a former PM. The guy who was making the most noise, Rutstein, on the subject was all over the place blaming Peres. Imagine, leading a political race by 30 points with 10 days to go, the #3 guy pulls out to support you, and you loose. Pretty hard to do, and that is what happened.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=14988 http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/10/africa/web.1110mideast.php Regarding posting video on internet, We are talking about the Kempler film and the Miriam Oren eyewitness film, This is not like posting a video of a family picnic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Conspiracy Nutjob (talk • contribs) 20:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

      • You still have not posted anything showing that Rutstein has made a dent in anything. The sole facts remain that Rutstein;
        • allegedly, posted two movies on the internet,
        • has some personal websites/blogs,
        • has walked around the streets with a sign promoting his website,
        • and has gotten interviewed in the media a couple of times (so have many others, does not make us all notable enough for WP).
Nothing else, no books, no parlour meeting circuit of Israel or other localities, no op-eds, no joining/leading any 'activist' organization, no purchasing of large newspaper advertisements, etc... You still have not posted any reference to anyone (except yourself) attributting any change in Israeli government policy due to Rutsteins actions. You still have not posted anything attributting Peres' loss to Rutstein except your own analysis or fantasy. The two links you just posted were about the elections, not Rutstein. The many other links you posted were also mostly about events, not Rutstein. --Shuki 11:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Web sites that are at the top of google are the equivalent of book sales. In hebrew language "yigal amir" of rutstein is #1 above wikipedia. "rabin murder/assassination" is right after wikipedia, #3. "shimon peres" is #3-5. "yitzhak rabin" is on first page. Just like wikipedia gets tons of hits anytime "yigal amir" is on the news, I would imagine that yigalamir.com at first place in google gets more hits. The technique of incitement, showing the video and court case online at top google positions has changed public opinion and revealed the fraud.Conspiracy Nutjob 12:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep' Two of the items listed as external links are actually major news articles, from an intent newspaper with an entry in WP. I don't know how unbiased they may be, but they are acceptable sources for the basics of his career and his views Along with the other items mentioned, I think they are sufficient to satisfy BLP. As for the merits of the matter, that is not the concern of WP.DGG (talk) 00:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, after reading the article and the occasional media references on the website of Arutz Sheva. gidonb 12:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Gidon B is notorious for editing the various "rabin murder conspiracy" information. for items such as rabin assassination video, gidon b is most of the edits and apparently he tried to delete the entry. For the "barry chamish" entry gidon b originally wrote the wiki article as a "hit job" on mr chamish and his subsequent edits are to make chamish look like an idiot.

Gidon B's 'rabin murder conspiracy" edits are numerous and seem to be intended to make fun of the conspiracy. It has been sugested that gidon b is being paid to make edits by the folks who are trying to keep the "conspiracy" under the carpet. I do know that those "whitewashers" are successful in hebrew wiki on keeping the kempler video off wiki. I knew it was a matter of time till they send there troops to the english wiki. Here are some links to the history and you can see that gidon b is not some "regular volunteer." It has been suggested that he is "stephen plaut" who has an article on wiki blasting the conspiracy. And of course, Mr Plaut has a glowing wiki entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kempler_video&limit=500&action=history

history of kempler video edits http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barry_Chamish&limit=500&action=history

rabin murder conspiracy http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yitzhak_Rabin_assassination_conspiracy_theories&limit=500&action=history Conspiracy Nutjob 13:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I am very proud of WP:NPOVing the above articles for several years now, even when I was quite alone in trying to uphold their Wikipedia standards. I received lots of praise for my edits. Of course the very small but persistent number of POV pushers in favor and against Amir, Chamish, Rabin, Peres and Plaut were not always happy when I NPOVd content that they had just inserted. So be it. I did write something about this on my user page, but that was also a long time ago.
Lately I have been less engaged in this area as the number of NPOV oriented editors who take interest grew and the amount of problems sharply declined. After all, this is not the only subject area I take interest in. Still, I just caught a sockpuppet of a banned user editing several of the articles, causing distress also in the LGBT, Women, Israel, Nazism, and porn related subject areas.
The above allegations by one and the same person are a barrel of laughs. I see them as an occupational hazzard for all Wikipedians who lonely NPOV contested subject areas. I enjoyed deeply changing far more contested articles and subject areas (e.g. Jerusalem and Israel), while receiving praise from all sides of the political spectrum and would happily remove anti-Rutstein content from his page the minute I spot it, if it will be kept. I see this as a matter of ethics.
In summary, I promise my collegues to continue keeping an eye on these articles, knowing their edit history and the interested parties quite well. gidonb 15:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
          • Gidonb sounds very sincere and good, but I have noticed that that is your technique when caught red handed. In your illustrious career on editing Rabin murder conspiracy. Here are some highlights.

1. trying to delete the rabin murder video .. on the rabin murder video page. 2. trying to delete the initial rabin murder video page. 3. deleting all references to the rabin murder video on related topics. 4. writing the initial hit job on barry chamish wiki entry, linking to a "hit site" that makes chamish to be a nazi sympathiser, and trying to delete the link to chamish' home page. 5. There is much more, but one must go through all the edit wars for the last 2-3 years. 6. making links to stephen plaut's "hit job" article on barry chamish and the conspiracy. 7. I would imagine that your sock puppets wrote the stephen plaut entry, but I really don't have time to go through it. 8. Hilariously, gidonb spends hours per day on wiki for years yet is happily married graduate student with 2 children. 9. the easiest way to confirm that gidonb has an agenda, is to look at the Barry Chamish entry before it was edited by anybody else. You can clearly see a "hit job" that is designed to make Chamish look like a bad person. Conspiracy Nutjob 16:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

  • CN, You know, I really want to practice WP:BITE, but your WP:SPA is very suspicious and frankly, detrimental to WP. You still haven't read the wikipedia guidelines. I suppose it's because you really don't have time to go through it. If you had, you'd know that you would also understand WP:AGF. You'd also know that you've misused this page in order to continue to promote your opinions, just like you used the talk page of the article to add in stuff that you didn't put in your original edits. Thanks for asking me to check out the history of the Chamish article. In it I found a great quote "It's fascinating that conspiracy theorists see conspiracies everywhere". You know what, I apologize, I let myself get sucked into your tangents here rather than moving the discussion about you to your talk page. You claim gidonb is a university professor as well as a married grad student and you seem to know what has been going on here for the past two-three years. Just maybe, your CN account is a WP:SOCK of your old 'Kempler video' user (admitted David Rutstein himself)? The similarities are striking. --Shuki 19:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
        • to Shuki, we know that keeping Rutstein, Chamish, Kempler video, etc is very important to the israel establishment to be be seen as bad or not important. I just am a bit suspiceous of any wiki guy who fights tooth and nail to edit this stuff. Rutstein has made a big difference in the history of israel, there have been sourced materials... and we see his influence. It was amazing that Rutstein. kempler film, etc is banned in hebrew wiki but rutstein's web sites have overcome the media blackout. This is big feat. Shuki, does it bother you that gidonb articles and edits seem to be on a mission to discredit rabin conspiracy? If it does not bother you i would be suspect of you. I have not read your edits .. but i can only imagine what they are. Shuki, enjoy the rest of the day, but there is no use argueing with an employee.Conspiracy Nutjob 22:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I looked at the article again and there is still only one independent source, on the slander lawsuit, which provides Rutstein significant coverage. The other sources are either non-reliable or (like the coverage of the video) primarily focus on another topic and don't mention Rutstein in a way that suggests he's notable. Given the coverage of the slander lawsuit I would not be surprised if there were other sources out there. Could someone please update the sources if there are? Thanks, --Shirahadasha 21:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The suit got coverage in the labor political party newspaper and other hebrew media,TV. Which probably helped peres loose the primary. There was coverage in various hebrew language media places. There are 4 big english language media outlets, Jpost, Ynetnews.com, Israelnationalnews.com, and Haaretz.com. These media outlets all have a specific political and ideological bent. There was a general consensus by all 4 newspapers to ignore the issue. Rutstein obviously has gotten israelnationalnews on his side. While the other news outlets have sparingly reported on Rutstein's activities. The amazing things is that Rutstein seems to have overcome a complete media whitewash to overcome and change public opinion. Obviously, the owner of shimonperes.net which appears at the top of google, calling peres a killer, making videos calling him a killer (http://www.shimonperes.net/davidpage/Davidflashfiles/goodfriends2.htm)the sueing peres for slander for $50,000 should be front page news. Rutstein was on TV a bit and sparing news stories. The media will write one story and stop there. That is what is happening and Rutstein is the impetus. BTW, the recent nrg.co.il /maariv article with rutstein's picture shown.. just described rutstein as the "Rabin assassination Conspirator" cuz , in essence, this uncovering the rabin stuff has been from rutstein's web sites. .....Conspiracy Nutjob 22:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete poorly sourced OR like this should not be kept. Yahel Guhan 00:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • CN, listen. IZAK, way back at the top, made a decent suggestion. Move the relevant and documented information to Yitzhak Rabin assassination conspiracy theories. If and when it can be proven (the key word here) that Rutstein has contributed anything substantial to the history of Israel as you claim, then there could be a seperate article that would be accepted by all. I want to avoid discussing the Hebrew WP which is literally controlled by a small core of like-thinking users with naturally prevents NPOV. But the problem is not with them and I don't blame them either. If you wanted to make a change their, all you have to do is convince several people of other opinions to start contributing, building credibility and getting to know the rules of editing over there. WP is not a democracy, but rules are rules, even on this wiki. The beauty about the larger wikis is the vast amount of editors here that naturally form a system of checks and balances from all POV. Why have I been so active on this case? Because it's a subject I know much about and I'm wary about previously unknown people trying to create a character ex nihilo. I do believe that one person can make changes, but on WP, you have to prove it if it ain't widely known. --Shuki 11:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.