Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Christian

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 05:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Christian

David Christian (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

I've debated this one for a long time, and finally decided to nominate for deletion. For starters virtually all the infomation on the page is referenced from www.davechristian.com. As the reference material is all from the subject's website, there is no real verifiability. Second, the whole thing reads like an advertisement/shrine to David Christian. As a serious, not casual, student of American military history, I have to admit I've never heard of David Christian. While I don't doubt the man is a veteran, and probably earned the awards listed, the article claims he is the "Most Decorated American officer in the Vietnam War." Fine, except that the same has been said of many other people. "Most decorated" is a highly subjective term, and usually self awarded by people, as the Pentagon, to my knowledge, never refers to anyone as the "most highly decorated." There are plenty of people who earned Distinguished Service Crosses, are Vietnam veterans, etc. but aren't necessarily notable. The only article that links here is Silver Star, and only because one of the editors to this article added his name to that article. The article has pictures showing him with famous people, but that does not confer notability. The book he wrote is out of print, so apparently not a huge demand for it. I guess to sum up, this seems more like using wikipedia as an advertiment space/shrine than an encyclopedic article, and is unverifiable from third party sources. The tone of the article doesn't help either, nor the fact that most of the editors on the page have edited only this article, or other ones to point to this article. Nobunaga24 15:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Strong and very speedy delete My suggestion--do it now. Obvious G11 ... the most blatant vanispamcruftisement I've ever seen. Blueboy96 16:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Note to closing admin Take any "keep" votes with a truckload of salt--the article is linked on the guy's Web site. That of course assumes that this isn't speedied or snowballed. Blueboy96 16:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete. No independent third-party non-trivial sources to confirm anything that's said here, and after 20 minutes searching I can't find any on Google. You'd think Vietnam's most decorated soldier would have been written about in articles on the war or on veterans, millions of which are available online, but I can't find any, which makes me question even his existence. Anybody can create a website. I'll assume good faith and not cry WP:HOAX, but again, you'd think such a highly-decorated veteran would be mentioned by somebody. --Charlene 16:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Look at the last reference. Callelinea 17:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, WP:VSCA applies with all the peacock language and the passel of gladhanding photographs. Promotional activity for his motivational speaking career, basically. I can see G11 but the guy does have some claims of notability making it a little borderline. --Dhartung | Talk 16:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Question: I've searched in the Wikipedia policy space but haven't found a policy on notability of military veterans. Are there guidelines for military people biographies? Surely being a veteran or a serving member or even a medium officer is not enough. I assume high officers (generals and admirals) are notable. Colonels? Are medal winners automatically notable? Some medal winners and not others? Hu 17:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
    • WP:MILHIST#Notability is probably the closest thing to a written version of the normal conventions in this area that's available; it's not all that revealing in this case, though. Kirill 21:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Very Strong Keep, He is decorated War Veteran, SEVEN purple hearts, yes the article needs work, but it can easaly be edited. Al we have to do is neutralze the article.. This guy is VERY NOTABLE. Callelinea 17:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Keep in mind that purple hearts -- even multiple purple hearts -- are very common. They are not given out for bravery or merit but for sustaining an injury in a combat environment. Note that John Kerry famously has three and no visible injury from any.--Dhartung | Talk 20:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete due to lack of independent verification. As to User:Hu's question, I think that the ordinary WP:BIO guidelines should apply. Namely, the military person should have been discussed in "published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject" to warrant an article. Military rank should not be a criterion in itself. --Metropolitan90 17:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I edited the article a bit and added more references, I think this article could not satisfy most of your objections. Callelinea 17:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Changing to neutral for the time being. --Metropolitan90 04:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Weak Keep after a thorough cleanup (especially the "Youngest Most Decorated"). Medals plus appointment to VA tips it for me. As far as I can tell, he was awarded the DSC, but how that qualifies him as the most decorated, when there were Medal of Honor recipients in the Vietnam War, is beyond me (by quantity maybe?). The Ronald Reagan reference returns "page not found" and the lack of third party references is troubling. Clarityfiend 17:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Reagan Web page working now. He won the awards in the 1960's. Most of the references are third party references.Callelinea 18:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Comment The Steppin' Out reference seems to have stepped out. Clarityfiend 20:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I still don't see an assertion of notability based in references. --Dhartung | Talk 20:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • All of his multiple awards?Callelinea 20:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Proof that they exist? (Note: a Purple Heart is not a highly notable award.) --Charlene 00:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Seven Purple Hearts, Distinguished Service Cross, Americas 2nd highest award in Combat for valor ;Two Silver Stars America's 3rd highest award for Valor in Combat ;Bronze Star Medal, Bronze Star Twice nominated for the Medal of Honor Combat Infantryman Badge Air Medal (for 25 combat assaults from a helicopter) Two Vietnamese Crosses of Gallantry(Vietnam's second highest military honor), Not enough medals for you, not notable enough? Callelinea 02:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Darrenhusted 22:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Those of you who have never heard of David Christian would do well to understand that he was also the person responsible for getting the seed money to build the The Wall in Washington D.C. for Vietnam soldiers who were killed in action. If it wasn't for David, our veterans of all wars would not be receiving the benefits they are very much in need of and definitely deserve. Someone has been messing with this page before I was asked to watch over it, and we would do ourselves and any veteran an injustice if this information was removed. Please note that David still works on behalf of veterans of all wars to this day (July 14, 2007) and continues to search for POW's. I will correct whatever is wrong or not allowed on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serinwing (talk • contribs) — Serinwing (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Keep -- cut down if you think there's cruft, but he's certainly notable, and Philadelphia Inquirer did a profile. Deletion is not the only answer. -- Fuzheado | Talk 02:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Yes the article needs massive cleanup but I had no problem finding: Association of US Army profile that documents most of the material[1], his being a major interview in two documentaries "VietNam the 10,000 Day War" and "Making Sense of the Sixties: Picking Up the Pieces, V.5", on the board of two major petroleum companies--including one that now has an exclusive concession from Vietnam if I understood the SEC filing correctly, that he was offered Director of the VA by Reagan, and mention of a US Senate Campaign. He's also a Fox News talking head on military matters, and may have been the one responsible for the "Baghdad Bob" nickname. Hard to tell because Fox has two David Christians in the same area of expertise, the other one being a Navy vet. At any rate, while I disagree with his politics in most matters he's definitely notable.Horrorshowj 07:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Comment - the AUSA page is without context, but I believe related to the release of his now out-of-print book in the early 90s. It could also be a member profile page - there are no "back to the main" page links, and a backwards links check shows nothing[1]The Philadelphia Inquirer article is also related to the release of the book I think. The AUSA bit relates his working during the Carter admin, but not which postion, and states Reagan offered him a position, but he turned it down - to be asked for a job and to do the job are two different things. Running for congress in itself is not notable; getting elected is. Many of the "keeps" here are offering further evidence of notability/outside verification, but no links to that verification. The "strong keep" above is by a user who has made all but one of his less than 100 edits (at this time) during July, and many of those edits to AfD debates. The only outside verification of an award I have seen is the DSC - and I can't get the last link on the article to open to see what it has. The other remain to be verified. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence - seven Purple Hearts and 2 noms for the MoH are notable, but they require proof, not just an assertion from the subject's website. If he is a Fox News contributor, don't just say it - give us a link, or source. If he was in documentaries, a link or some kind of proof please. I'm also surprised that if he does have these on his resume, why aren't they on his website (unless I missed it)?--Nobunaga24 10:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Withdrawing the AUSA page, it's even worse than you noted. Every other hit with.../wpc/ is a member benefits type page, and the article doesn't appear to be reachable through the sitemap. I apologize for including it. I thought if that organization vetted the article, it would be an acceptable reference for confirmation of it's contents. Unfortunately, I'm not sure anyone outside their IT deparment is even aware it exists. Found proof for fox news, Navy Capt is a screwup by fox.
Strong keep was an overreaction. To make sure that I understand, are you saying that if his award history can be verified you'd agree that he meets notability?Horrorshowj 01:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I would say he is closer to notability if that can be verified. But as far as American service personnel, without a Medal of Honor, I would say that awards alone are not notable. Thousands and thousands have received the medals listed, and everything below the DSC are, while admirable, basically not enough to get in an encyclopedia. The DSC, IMHO, in and of itself, isn't enough notability to get an article. I guess for me, everything listed in here individually aren't notable enough to justify an article, and the sum of them really isn't either. Add to that the unverifiability, I decided to list for AfD. When I say I mulled it over a long time, I'm not exaggerating. My first edit on this was over a year ago, and I thought of listing it then for AfD, but waited to see how it evolved, checking back every once and a while. But in all that time, it hasn't improved much. Incidentally, he isn't a talking head for Fox News as far as I can tell. I found one reference that refered to a David Christian as a "consultant" to Fox News, but not what type of consultant. I also can't find anything on this particular DAC Conulting firm other than davidchritian.com--Nobunaga24 01:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe you on how long you waited, and I understand nominating it for COI if nothing else. I just think the article's fixable. I didn't appreciate you taking a cheap shot about my AfD participation and time on wiki. I've participated in a lot of AfD but only voted to keep 4-5 of them. One of those was procedural, because the article was less than 8 hours old and the nom admitted he knew it didn't meet speedy. Not only against deletion policy, it's just rude. Horrorshowj 04:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - the article needs some good housecleaning but decorated veteran involved in advocacy activities and who's activities are covered in a book, I am for giving this BLP time to improveStatisticalregression 02:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete as per back and forth above. Barely notable. Bearian 19:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)