Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Williams

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dan Williams

Dan Williams (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

nn per WP:N. Never made it to major leagues. Led non noteable college team in some statistic isn't enough. Truest blue 02:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of baseball-related deletions. —Truest blue 04:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete for above reasons--Truest blue 20:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Contrary to your nomination, he IS in the major leagues. The article clearly states that he is the bullpen catcher for the Cleveland Indians. I believe a strong precedent has been established for inclusion of major league personnell including coaches. The bullpen catcher is a coach. If he wasn't, they would hire any high school or college kid to squat and hold a mitt. There is a reason they hire men with as much experience as Williams for such jobs.

Even if he wasn't notable for being a major league coach, he would still be notable as having been a minor league coach. The powers that be here have ruled that minor league PLAYERS are not notable, but there has never been such a ruling on minor league coaches.

Even assuming that minor league coaches were one day dropped from wikipedia, Mr. Williams would still be notable since the pitching staff he coached in 1991 led the Kinston Indians to a Carolina League championship and his closer, Mike Soper, established a Carolina League saves record that still stands to this day. Certainly this is above and beyond what the average minor league pitching coach has accomplished.Kinston eagle 03:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment.

1. Just because they can't just hire anyone off the street to be the bullpen catcher does not mean that the person that they hire deserves a WP article.

2. If minor league players are not noteable then, a fortiori, minor league coaches aren't noteable.

3. He is noteable because the closer on his team broke a record? That sounds like desperation.--Truest blue 03:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

A look at his OFFICIAL BIO clearly shows that the Indians consider him a coach. "Enters 13th full season on the Major League coaching staff..." Are we to delete all major league coaches?Kinston eagle 03:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Your comment #2 seems rather backward. The players aren't notable so the people who are in command of them and instruct them aren't either? That's like saying that an enlisted man is unimportant so obviously his officers are even less important.Kinston eagle 03:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, if you are going to be in the habit of nominating articles for deletion you may want to learn how to spell notable.Kinston eagle 03:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I just had a look. Every single major league team on wikipedia has bullpen coaches with linked bios included on their rosters. Are you proposing that all these men get deleted? Obviously, all those wikipedians felt that bullpen coaches were notable. Were they all wrong? Some like THIS have far less going for them than Mr. Williams. One wonders why you chose to single Mr. Williams out.Kinston eagle 04:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

1. I noticed you are getting personal. I guess you feel that I insulted you. If that is the case, I apoligize.

2. The Indians considering him a coach, should not make him notable. As far as I know there is no article on Bullpen Catcher's, nor any bio on any bullpen catchers. If you do find a bio on a bullpen catcher, I guarentee he will be notable for other reasons.

3.I am not, nor did I ever, propose that all coaches are not notable. I am proposing that bullpen catchers are not noteable.

4. Your bring proof from "[e]very single major league team on wikipedia has bullpen coaches with linked bios included on their rosters." However, that is not true. Most teams do not have a link to their bullpen catcher. In fact, I think only the Reds and the Indians(article under discussion) have a link to their bullpen catchers. Most teams have links to other coaches, but not to their bullpen catchers.

5. Ask the average "die-hard" fan - "Who is the bullpen catcher on the team that you root for"? An overwhelming majority will not know.--Truest blue 04:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Kinston Eagle. The Indians consider him a coach. That's good enough for me. Resolute 04:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I count 7 Major League teams that list their bullpen catchers with the coaching staff: Cleveland, Kansas City, the Angels, Colorado, the Dodgers, San Francisco and Cincinnati (the Royals' bullpen catcher is not currently included on their WP roster page). Others do not. Those that do obviously feel that these individuals fulfill a role on the team that warrants identifying them as coaches. Major League coaches are certainly notable enough to have WP bios. Therefore, these pages should stay. --Sanfranman59 06:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I've just re-read Wikipedia:Notability (people), and I fail to see how this person meets the guideline.--Fabrictramp 13:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The specific standard for notability of baseball people is found HERE. It clearly states that "Baseball executives, coaches, and managers are also notable." This person happens to be a major league coach, but, for future reference, the guidelines make no distinction on this point so articles on minor league coaches and managers should also be notable. I don't think there is any argument that Wiliams qualifies under that standard of notability as well.69.68.238.142 14:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to edit the sports section of Wikipedia:Notability (people) to let people know that baseball has a special case. Spreading notability guidelines all over WP isn't very user friendly. --Fabrictramp 21:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Per above uses. Just being in the coaching staff (only 7 Majors teams?) does not garner you a Wikipedia article. Your other arguments completely fail to convince me that he is notable. James Luftan 15:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, according to the Guidelines, just being in the coaching staff of a major league team does garner you a Wikipedia article. As noted above "(b)aseball executives, coaches, and managers are also notable." Unless that policy is changed at some point, this article meets that level of notability.69.68.238.142 15:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Yes, but he is not a coach, he is a bullpen catcher. James Luftan 16:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
  • He is listed on the official Indians site as a coach. The point I was trying to make earlier is that although most teams do not identify their bullpen catchers as coaches, seven eight teams do. (The White Sox also list their BP catcher as a coach. I missed them when I did my count last night.) If the team considers him to be a coach, it seems to me that we should also. If we don't, then we open the can of worms as to which coaches are worthy of an article and which are not. --Sanfranman59 16:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per WP Baseball notability guidelines. IMHO, as long as a major-league team has listed him as a coach at any time, he qualifies for Wikipedia. — Dale Arnett 19:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, the sources call him a coach, making him notable. T Rex | talk 01:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep As per above, the Indians consider him a coach, which meets WP Baseball notability guidelines. Chengwes 06:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.