Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daimonin

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete; notability not established, no independent reliable sources. Krimpet (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Daimonin

Daimonin (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete - No assertion of notability, no reliable secondary sources available for verification, Google search is only turning the usual download link sites. DarkSaber2k 18:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

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DO NOT DELETE - please define "usual download link sites". Please explain why its bad. Can you please explain why you see only "usual download link sites" after entering what keyword?

Lets see - Daimonin is "Daimonin MMORPG" named. Lets do both keywords seperate - the name and the "class description" mmorpg

google.com english, keyword "daimonin", hits for first page:

Lets see what we have: 2 references to their open source project (thats ok, or?), wikipedia, freshmeat (biggest open source reference), happypenguin (THE linux game reference), mmorpg.com (THE biggest mmorpg related game site, listed by mmorpg even before wikipedia), getdeb (UBUNTU linux release dep package reference... if you don't know what linux or a dep installation package is, please give me a note, i will explain it), and another gamesite with gamezone... also a PRETTY BIG one.

BTW: Can it be that you are using not an english search engine? There you will find for sure more download links, because they are not refering to english sites and documentation on purpose. Thats a language depending thing, but we are on the english wikipedia here, so lets use the english search engines. Only commercial mmorpg have the manpower to install a multi language enviroment for their games.

Second try, same as above but now we use "mmorpg"... You must give me right when i say this is a PRETTY HARD test. Now, you will see something funny:

- one the first page EVERY ENTRY has a direct reference to Daimonin!!! Even the planeshift game site has an entry in their forum (ok, this is more for curiosity).

- Daimonin is listed on page 2 AS SECOND OR THIRD MMORPG IN GOOGLES. Perhaps you will explain this in using some link forms and such? Just for the case you do - can you then go through the 2 list i gave and explain how its possible?

So... where are your usual download link sites here? Can you explain me why a.) your facts you give us as reason for a deletion don't fits this simple google research? Have you perhaps used a different search engine? Which one and which keyword please? And b.) you was not able to insert this 2 keywords in googles and comes to the same result?

I can't help me - what you mentioned here as reason for a deletion don't seems to be the truth!

Thats strange. Should you not, as someone who is acting independent and in good will, careful do a research and interesting to see whats going on?

Because some lines under this lines you even mention to us that the Daimonin forum links to this. So, on the one side, you can't or you don't want do a regular, good resarch and one the other side you go really deep in it. Browsing the forum means you also browsed a bit on the website, yes? Why you don't mention then the sourceforge project, the fact we are the 2nd biggest open source mmorpg (well, counting the 135.000 people who has subscribed for Daimonin and waiting for the 3d client - or perhaps they just like to describe to sides like Daimonin ... and no, you don't need to subscribe for playing).

Its also somewhat disgusting that you always are saying bad things about the daimonin open source project. Where is your positiv part? Please comment about:

    • - Daimonin is a well known, growing open source project
    • - Daimonin is one of the biggest open source mmorpg
    • - Daimonin is full playable, with a growing community
    • - Daimonin has rised other open source project (browse sourceforge)
    • -- Crossmagi (animated 2d graphics)
    • -- Gridarta (formerly daimonin editor, now own project as general game data editor)
    • -- Angelion (fork of Daimonin... small but young)
    • - Daimonin has 135.000 Subscribers (and you don't need to subscribe for playing)
    • - Daimonin has between 500-1000 dowloads per day (please count on not only sourceforge

but also all the usual download links)

After all this facts i gave - and i am just to tired to post here more links - be sure there are more i was only refering to 2 google pages, can you explain your sentence: "Another search (to be thorough) for 'Daimonin mmorpg' only turns up the same unreliable download linkfarms etc etc ad nauseu"

Can you understand that people who has spend years of work in coding and running this open source game will very angry when they read it? Can it be that YOU WANT that they get angry? Its just a feeling... But you must admit that someone GET this feeling when you compare my thread with yours, or?

Please forgive me when i was a bit "sarcastic" in this "rant". English is not my first language and i think counting my words above, i tried to give as many useful information as possible. But the difference between the reality and the reasons for deletion given are a bit big, or?

And sentence like "usual download link sites" and the term "linkfarms" are used normally to describe web spammers and illegal actions against search engines. YOU used them. Against an open source project which is just linked to the, yes, HOPEFULLY "usual" gamesites and shareware/freeware sites.

Because we want that people see something different as the "usual" chinese pay2play game and another "Runescape" or "Playworld", done with a visual basic editor. I hope you are aware that the wikipedia is born out of the some roots as Daimonin - as an open source project from and for the community, with ideals like freedom and open.

Notable or not, listed in wikipedia or not - dealing with Daimonin in the way you did, is just a shame and worth a troll but not a wikipedia editor. MT - 26 May 2007 (UTC) — 83.236.59.245 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 16:11, May 26, 2007 (UTC).

Just to avoid wrong impressions: I am Michael Toennies, the project founder of Daimonin. Please excuse when my rant above there was pretty hard, sorry. This was not against single persons here - I just was hurt pretty much by terms like "linkfarms" and "usual download sites". These terms are related to illegal or at least unsocial behaviours in the internet.

We (we means our developers, around 30+ persons) put some effort in being noticed by big game sites. Why? Because normally you only get noticed there if you have money. Most games/mmorpgs at this kind of sites are deeply commercial. They usually don't accept non-commercial games. Open source as an option for a mmorpg, Second Life and other games going from commercial to open source (at last at the client side) are pretty new trends. That we as open source are accepted by many game sites is just as pretty new. There are only 1-2 other non-commercial games which are accepted.

So, please don't be hurt when you read my rant - it's at last my honest anger about being blamed of linkfarming.

Perhaps it's also the article itself. It was on our todo list to find someone to describe what daimonin really is: An open source project about how to make a game from coding to servers and community, how to design a make ... It's complex, notable and interesting.

The problem: That's not that easy... Some understanding of the project (not the game) is required for creating a good description about all its aspects...

Under the aspect that we are open source, community driven and independent, we are really open for real opinions. MT - 26 May 2007 (UTC) — 83.236.59.245 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 18:02, May 26, 2007 (UTC).

NOTE: This AfD has been linked to from the official game forum here. DarkSaber2k 23:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game deletions. DarkSaber2k 18:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • delete in the absence of sources to justify its notability. A LexisNexis search came up empty. — brighterorange (talk) 20:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Yahoo search came up with the article as the second link. --Whsitchy 21:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment That is true for most Wikipedia pages anyway. That is a pretty irrelevant statement. --Ihmhi 03:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Do Not Delete

3rd Party Review sites, verifying existence, and releases. I will save this article, even if I have to cite Sources with old information about the game (which is currently in Beta 4 now)

Clan/Player Support Websites


I will get more when i have time to, but it should be known that the people who play Daimonin will probably fiercely defend their article in Wikipedia. Furthermore, i would like to mention that just because there is not adequate 3rd party citation does not mean an article should be deleted! these are GUIDELINES only, remember that! (i rescind my call for a vote as it doesn't matter evidently)

Also, this game is healthy, actively being developed, and is not under any circumstances in jeopardy of disappearing. Furthermore, As an encyclopedia, keeping articles which may no longer server a purpose to the everyday person, is part of what makes an encyclopedia. I am watching many games being threatened with deletion of their articles merely because someone doesn't think they have sufficient validation of existence in an encyclopedia, where, on the flip side, i believe i would come to an encyclopedia to learn more about a little known game with little citation. Your erasing history by constantly removing valid games (both past and present) from your articles. Its appalling. ThePlaneskeeper 22:57 PM, 25 May 2007 (UTC) — ThePlaneskeeper (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.

  • Comment- There are other websites and wikis useful for information about a game. Gameinfo is one of them. Also, Wikipedia is not a democracy. It does not matter how many new users come here to "vote," as actions taken here are reached by discussion and consensus. This page may look a lot like straw votes, but its not counted that way. You will have the most luck if you directly contest the points raised by the discussion and/or fix them. Good luck! -wizzard2k (C•T•D) 01:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Lack of reliable non-trivial sources, thus failing WP:V ("Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources."). The above links don't look to be reliable (blogs/forums) or are trivial listings (couple sentence blurbs/user ratings). Wickethewok 03:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Strong Keep since, while there are many others, I simply couldn't find a free software MMORPG with has more players than this one.-- Roc VallèsTalk|Hist - 04:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, even after reviewing the above 'references':
    • MMORPG.com is a press release; trivial

EDIT: sorry, but here i get angry. The whole list here from this guy is, sorry, nonsense and a lie, that its necessity to mark this entry as what it is - just a selected list of links without any reference, documented in a way which only has one reason: To give a bad impression. Sorry, even the worst porn side has following Murphy at last one good entry, this list is not done to give information - its just a good tarned way for trolling.

Because: The mmorrpg.com entry, the biggest website about mmorpg, is a press release???? MMORPG.com is listed BEFORE wikipedia when it comes to search word "mmorpg" in googles, not because the do some search engine tricks but because they are more relevant to that keyword as wikipedia. Daimonin is there listed on their game list next to wow, daoc and all the big games: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/gameId/0 The entry is big and used since years: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/overview/gameID/119 and Daimonin has even an own forum part there (as full listed game) http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/forum/668

I think its clearly to see that this links are telling a whole different story! Please ignore this troll!

    • about.com - very brief overview; trivial
    • lockergnome - reasonable review, but don't know if it is a reliable source, will give benefit of doubt, but not enough on it's own.
    • gamezone.com - directory listing; trivial
    • OMGN.com - press release; trivial
    • freewebs.com/daimonin - fan page; not independent
    • freewebs.com/daimoninunit - clan/fan page; not independent
    • scytheswingers - er, some kind of clan page?; not independent
To the players of the game that will 'fiercely defend' this article, please note that Wikipedia is not a directory for every computer game under the sun; entries have to be notable and supported by independent non-trivial references, regardless of if you want to throw the guidelines out of the window or not. As mentioned above, there are plenty of game-specific wikis out there - Gamerwiki is another. Marasmusine 11:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
It's sad to get redirected to commercial (.com) sites.-- Roc VallèsTalk|Hist - 11:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete due to lack of independent reliable sources. Stifle (talk) 13:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Another search (to be thorough) for 'Daimonin mmorpg' only turns up the same unreliable download linkfarms etc etc ad nauseum. DarkSaber2k 18:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep (I am a Daimonin dev so have a vested interest) Hm, notability seems a bit problematic. I understand the arguments that most of the above references are trivial and therefore do not satisfy notability, and I also understand that notability is not synonymous with popularity (I actually thanks Wikipedia for making that distinction!).
However, by the same token the notability criterion is making unrealistic demands on a non-commercial game in development. Such a game, eg Daimonin, will be largely 'under the radar'. In fact this is partly intentional as we don't want people to judge the game as a finished product while it is still in development.
Given this, that Daimonin has so many 'trivial' references is indicative of its notability. Of course this argument can be turned on its head and denounced as mere popularity. I won't pre-empt an argument about the two concepts.
But I will quote Wikipedia's own note on notability: '...it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.'
So in that spirit perhaps notability can be satisfied by Googling MMORPG, the genre of game to which Daimonin belongs. As you will see, the Daimonin website is in the top ten hits and a search for Daimonin on any of the general MMORPG site will turn up a result. Daimonin is known and notable within the genre.
I realise this probably won't satisfy the clamour for 'non-trivial' sources but I refer you back to the point about non-commercial games in development. However, look at Wikipedia's very own entry on MMORPGs. Daimonin is referenced there. I have no idea who wrote it, but it has been around for some time and Googling 'daimonin academic' will turn up many hits which have taken and built on this article over the years. So it seems that deleting Daimonin's Wikipedia entry on the grounds of lack of notability and no reliable sources would be something of an own goal for Wikipedia. Or is Wikipedia inherently unreliable and are you going to followup by deleting all references to the game from your general MMORPG entry? Smackyuk 18:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC) — Smackyuk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Don't delete.

Some facts:

  • I'm biased: I'm one of the Daimonin developers, and I'm the main author of the German Wikipedia article about Daimonin.
  • Afaik Daimonin is one of the most popular open source mmorpgs.
  • The source code is GPL.
  • The website has ~132000 registered users.
  • The server hosts >32000 player characters.
  • Usually there's ~45 players online in the avarage. That's some thousands of active players.
  • We've also already been the "parent" of some forks. I'm aware of 4 forks but only 1 of them (Angelion) seems to be still alive - more or less.
  • Daimonin has a very active community, with >45000 posts in its Forum (some of them in restricted boards).

So for notability, I'd count:

  • community
  • project forks
  • popularity (compared with other open source mmorpgs)

Also I'd wish for open source projects having a fair chance to coexist and gain popularity besides commercial games like World of Warcraft. Being listed in the Wikipedia could be a part of that chance. Sorry that we don't have the bucks to create plain notability from a massive campaign. Taking that into account, I find the mere popularity of Daimonin even more notable.

--Christianhujer 01:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC) — Christianhujer (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Comment so, you're suggesting that the article has merit because it helps to popularize the game? Certainly understandable from a developer's or player's point of reference. But Wikipedia is not for Advertising. Either the notability of the game is already sufficient for an article and the article should be here, or it isn't and it shouldn't. The demand isn't being made on Wikipedia and its "standards in regard to open source." Rather, the demand is being made of the game that its notability be established. All that said, I'm abstaining from expressing an action opinion at the moment, and I personally appreciate those with vested interests saying so clearly. LaughingVulcan Laugh With Me / Logical Entries 03:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentI think he's suggesting it has merit because it is Popular, not the other way around. Therefore, it is already popular and should be here (which it is) and should not be in threat of being deleted.ThePlaneskeeper 04:40 PM, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Popularity doesn't guarantee notability. In general, software or products should be included on the article about the company that develops them (assuming they're notable enough) -- see Recommendations for products and services. If the software or product is notable enough to have received multiple independent published works about it, then it might deserve its own entry under notability criteria. -wizzard2k (C•T•D) 05:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment My point was: Compared with WoW it's unpopular, but compared with other open source mmorpgs it's extremely popular. Comparing it with commercial mmorpgs only and from thus deriving lack of popularity and thus a lack of notability just wouldn't be fair imo.
Also please read: Just not notable
On the numbers given: Of course, numbers are just numbers. Whether they are sufficient for being notable or not is hard to judge. --Christianhujer 11:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Do Not Delete

Open-source MORPG's are rare. The "Free, open source role-playing video games" category has only 5 pages. Many open-source MORPG's begin development, but very few reach the point of playability. Rarity makes an item worthy of note. In addition, Daimonin appears to have a strong community; the fact that it has a number of fan sites and a strong user base contributes to its notability. I've never played Daimonin (or its predecessor Crossfire), and I found the article useful, though not as informative as it could be. I agree that it needs to be expanded.

Third-party reviews are not the sole criteria for notability; other criteria shouldn't be downplayed.

I would not consider this article an advertisement. It appears to be balanced, and it provides information useful to Wikipedia users.

Since Daimonin is an open-source project, I assume there is no company developing it. (If there is, that fact should certainly be added to the article.) An open-source project can't really be separated from its product, so a separate article would be redundant.

I suggest expanding this article rather than deleting it. Eterry 05:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment The reply hierarchy is a bit confusing! Anyway, assuming some of these replies were in reference to my comment above, no I was (I thought explicitly) not suggesting that popularity grants merit, alone. However, there is some overlap between popularity and notability as concepts, whether or not that overlap has been recognised in the Wikipedia guidelines.
Specifically, and this is a point I think MT and Christianhujer were making, Daimonin's member (player) numbers and the quantity of 'trivial' mentions and links on general MMORPG sites (and thus to a large extent its high ranking on Google), while all on there own simply measures of popularity, contribute to notability if taken together. This is a point I think Eterry was making.
If you take Wizzard2k's last comment strictly it is in fact proving the point the first sentence explicitly states is not so: the argument means that popularity does guarantee notability. More than that, financial resources (perhaps indirectly) buy popularity and thus guarantee notability because third parties, however reliable and independent, write about popular entities.
I very much agree with Eterry's comment: you cannot judge an open-source software project's notability by the exact same standard as that of a commercial software company. Daimonin is notable within the MMORPG genre, partly due to its popularity as a free, 'amateur' game (ie, member/player numbers, >32000). However, compared to say, WoW which has >8 million players, this is nothing. Due to that popularity, and its financial backing, WoW has had many articles published about it and can therefore point to many references. Thus popularity guarantees notability.
A strict application of the notability criterion is not helpful, unless you want Wikipedia to be merely a listing of the larger commercial companies.
I, and I think the other Daimonin devs, also agree with Eterry's comment that the Daimonin entry needs expansion. This has been on the TODO list for some time, but there is quite a bit involved in developing and maintaining a MMORPG, and doing it in our spare time we have to prioritise. However, trying to force the issue by recommending deletion is not helpful. Smackyuk 15:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete as per DarkSaber2k. Sephylight 23:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete. Web notability guidelines suggest, "The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself." Of the links mentioned above, only the About.com and Lockergnome seem to give coverage of Daimonin beyond, "Download it here." I don't know Lockergnome well enough to say it's non-trivial. Is it on Gamespot? No. Is it on Gamerankings.com? No. Is it on IGN? No. Is it on videogamereview.com? No. Is it on Metacritic.com? No. Is it on Gamezone.com? A download link is, but no review or any other coverage. Has it been Slashdotted? No. Are there multiple non-trivial published works listed in the article? No. Sorry, I like seeing open-source projects succeed also. I really hope this project continues building to the point where it merits Wikipedia coverage. But as I mentioned above, Wikipedia articles are for subjects already notable, not ones in search of notability. LaughingVulcan Laugh With Me / Logical Entries 00:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment You seems to be using "notable" as a synonym for "known." This is not accurate. Notability does not mean "known" but rather "worthy of notice." Multiple sources are preferred but not mandatory. If nothing else, Daimonin is notable due to its rarity, its sizable community, and the usefulness of its article to Wikipedia readers. Eterry 05:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Hm, I'm not sure this 'discussion' is proving very useful. The points being made by posters such as Eterry and myself are not really being addressed, much less discussed. In fact all that is happening is the pro-deleters are quoting and requoting (or in fact usually just linking to) the same Wikipedia guidelines over and over again. This continual repetition gives the appearance that the self-describing guidelines are being touted as hard-and-fast, flawless rules.
They are not. They have certain inadequacies, as I have pointed out above.
Also, Sephylight, nice argument. Remember, this is not a majority vote, it is a discussion with a final decision made on the merits of the arguments not by counting votes. I'd have thought that a Wikipedia recent changes patroller, or indeed anyone who has read the top of this page, would know that. If we're going by votes I shall post to the Daimonin forums asking players to edit this page with '''Do not delete''' As per MT, Christianhujer, Theplaneskeeper, Roc Valles, Eterry, and Smackyuk ~~~~.
I pointed out a reason we intentionally have not tried to get Daimonin on gamespot.com, etc. or slashdotted. Again as Eterry points out you are misunderstanding the meaning of notability.
Here's another reason why Daimonin is notable: it's place in (free, OS) MMORPG history. Daimonin is a progression from CrossFire (itself the subject of a misjudged Wikipedia deletion crusade -- a failed crusade I might add) which is highly notable in MMORPG history, being pretty much the grandaddy of it all. Daimonin has expanded, changed, and modernised the code and philosophy of CF to create a distinct and unique game, on a par with (and using some of the same and some different concepts as) the most modern commercial MMORPGs. A history of the genre which does not mention Daimonin is incomplete and therefore inherently unreliable, regardless of who wrote it or how high on the Google rankings it is.
Why does one come to an encyclopaedia? To gain knowledge. One expects the encyclopaedia to be exhaustive in its coverage of a subject, to be, well, encyclopaedic. Not to offer coverage of only the most commercial and popular subjects. Encyclopaedias should surely offer detailed and specialised information? Surely the idea is that if someone wants to find out about MMORPGs she goes to Wikipedia and that tells her as much or as little as she wants to know? Not she goes to Wikipedia and that gives her information about the most commercial games only? Smackyuk 11:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply Is the discussion without merit? Hadn't noticed that. I see a bit of cross-purposes going on here, but that isn't the same as being incapble of listening. Yes, there are times and places to make exceptions, and this might be the time for one. Eterry and Smackyuk are correct that there are times for exceptions to notability, and to make reasonable exceptions to policy. But, without trying to Wikilawyer, the notability guidelines do suggest that multiple and nontrivial sources are a nominal component of notability. And I don't think I'm confusing "known" and "notability," I'm making the case that something "worthy of notice" should already be noticed in reliable sources besides Wikipedia, before being placed here. It certainly would help if someone could put some reliable sources into the article itself, instead of relying on the primary reference of a directory-and-statistics site, and the site itself in the article.
Certainly you have the capability to invite every fanboy you know to put up "Keep per ... etc." on the page, despite the banner at the top. It is my understanding that this has already happened. I'm sure the closing admin will be able to filter them out, just as he or she will sort out all the "Delete per ... etc." "arguments." As he or she will filter the concepts citing, "its sizable community, and the usefulness of its article to Wikipedia readers.", and, "...a progression from CrossFire", and, "Why does one come to an encyclopaedia? To gain knowledge."
All that said, you are certainly making a persuasive case. I am moving from what I thought was a simple delete for notability and advertising to a weak keep. I think the only thing I'm wondering about is the source reliability of the lockergnome site. LaughingVulcan Laugh With Me / Logical Entries 14:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep It's clear that this Daimonin page falls short of the policies and guidelines developed recently, particularly with regard to notability and verifiability. Some of those on this page who have voted “delete” have said as much, with pangs of regret.

Yet, it doesn’t feel like we are making our encyclopedia better by the subtraction. That feeling has good reasoning behind it; the rules we have established and repeat are flawed. The fact that we repeat these rules ad nauseam does not forestall the same arguments against them from being made over and over. Some of the more tortured guidelines are counter-intuitive, while the arguments against them have the merit of common sense.

If we agree that Daimonin has no place in Wikipedia, it not only means it gets no page of its own, that ruling means Daimonin gets no mention on any page. It means that a user visiting the definitive mmorpg page is better served by never hearing about Daimonin nor its ilk. Never mind that the user may very well find that information useful or interesting, or that a large number of people have built a community around it. That information is irrelevant and those people are nonentities because a newspaper, magazine, or scholarly journal has not sanctified them with a nod yet.

I do not feel comfortable wiping significant underground movements from our encyclopedia. I do believe that cults should be notable based on popularity, because while the reverse is not necessarily true, items which are popular are notable by definition. An uninformed user would and should expect to see a mention of Daimonin in Wikipedia. Daimonin’s absence would be felt and would reflect poorly on Wikipedia. This is the test case which should cause us to rethink our recent guidelines and come up with more sensible and intuitive ones.

Note: I am not a member of the Daimonin community and have never played their game. Pisomojado 16:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Weak Keep the article lacks good sources and contains some fairly trivial information, but if this number of downloads is halfway accurate it's well worth keeping and improving. This isn't some week-old Sourceforge vanity project, people. Eleland 18:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete. Fails WP:V due to a lack of verifiable third-party sources. It doesn't matter how popular this site it, how substantial their membership is, or anything of the sort - popularity does not equal notability. Arguing that it does goes against accepted policy, and attempting to debunk policy on this Afd will not change the fact that the policy exists. If you wish to change the policy in question, go to the respective policy page and request a change. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 22:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep While Wikipedia is trying to clean up its pages I don't think Daimonin is detremental to its encyclopedia, offering information and content to a niche market, which I think is FAR more than enough to meet this statement about tne notability criteria "is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." To take away the Daimonin page would be against being an 'encyclopedia'. Notable is stated as not meaning popular, but in the criterion that is set the only way to achieve notability is in most circumstances to be popular, this is a bad flaw IMO.

It can be very difficult for a specialist/niche product to become notable, the point is: Niche - has a small market. The niche being a free MMORPG open source game. With searches using that niche description only turning up a few pages of results. Therefore to take away the article would be damaging to Wikipedia. — 81.100.112.95 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 16:01, May 28, 2007 (UTC).

Comment: Wikipedia is not a form of advertising to make your game more attractive. As you directly pointed out, there exists a lack of third party sources to make Daimonin notable, and as such, it still fails WP:V. Using a Wikipedia article to change this situation would directly violate policy. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 01:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I believe there are some misunderstandings of the notability guideline. The notability guideline does not state that something worthy of notice should already be noticed before having a Wikipedia article. Something which has been noticed is presumed to be worthy of notice, but something which has not been noticed cannot be presumed to be non-notable. "Notable" does not mean "noted." Also, it is true that popularity does not equal notability; however, popularity does guarantee notability. The reason popularity does not equal notability is because lack of popularity does not guarantee non-notability. Finally, keep in mind that topics are "presumed to be notable" if they meet the specific criteria listed at Notability or in the subject-specific notability guidelines, but they are not presumed to be non-notable if they do not meet these criteria. A determination of notability, or the lack thereof, requires careful analysis and thought. A litmus test is not possible, and so far as I know one has not been proposed. Eterry 06:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Keep. Perhaps my thinking is misguided but I am of the opinion that an MMORPG whose website has over 100,000 members is notable. ugen64 06:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Could be, but what does total website registrations over all time have to do with anything? -wizzard2k (C•T•D) 06:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - all this talk of notability has obscured a key point. Notability is a guideline, but verifiability is official policy. The devs have chimed in to this discussion and explicitly stated that they wanted to be "under the radar", and a consequence of this desire, there is little independent reliable sources covering teh development of the game. -- Whpq 16:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Well, the Daimonin project is over 6 years old and independent hosted by sourceforge. A complete source & content history can be found in their project page. To question their verifiability is pretty obscure - the technical system behind the sourceforge source repository is the same as behind the wikipedia page history and security and technical not questionable. Developers have no direct access to their repository root, its not possible for a hosted project to manipulate it in terms of date or already commited data.

To track down their verifiability is pretty easy. There many technical related verifiable sources to their development. Please notice the number of .org and non profit sites.

on daimonin but not from the daimonin project. The packages and install makes are developed and maintained by the related OS volunteers (gentoo, debian...). Their organisation is pretty similiar to the wikipedia editor community.

Many links to technical & development are "hidden" in source engines, are closed on purpose and removed from "visible" net like outdated technical issues, closed bugs or date/time depending links. They only show off when the right keywords are given. Also, the reference to daimonin is often only mentioned in somewhat hidden places - in development sites a short reference link or note is normally common. Thats a big difference to (noteable) blogs, forums review pages. It does not make them less important for other wikipedia classifications.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.