Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dae Gak

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE. -Docg 00:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dae Gak

Dae Gak (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable religious teacher. No third party sources available, the only source is subject's short autobiography on his own website. Subject has written a dissertation and one book, and has established a non-notable retreat center. The subject's notability does not meet any of the criteria in WP:BIO. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 22:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

  • There is no consensus - the article in question cannot be deleted: Anyone interested in the accepted policy of wikipedia with respect to the deletion of articles should refer to the "Proposed Deletion" section of Deletion policy page, which clearly states: "An editor who believes a page obviously and uncontroversially doesn't belong in an encyclopedia can propose its deletion. These pages can be deleted by any adminstrator if, after five days, nobody objects to the proposed deletion. Once there is an objection or a deletion discussion, a page may not be proposed for deletion again."
  • Silence equals consent: Anyone interested in the accepted meaning of "consensus" on wikipedia should consult the page on Consensus, which says, in part: "'Silence equals consent' is the ultimate measure of consensus — somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process. When there are disagreements, they are resolved through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus. If we find that a particular consensus happens often, we write it down as a guideline, to save people the time having to discuss the same principles over and over. Normally consensus on conflicts are reached via discussion on talk pages."
  • Therefore this article cannot be deleted since there are two objections after less than two full days of discussion.
  • Further discussion of this page should be moved to the appropriate talk page. Please note, however, that all content on that page must be consistent with wikipedia policies regarding biographies of living persons.
  • Nor can this article be listed for deletion in the future. I hope no one minds me placing this important information about official wikipedia policy with respect to deletion at the top of this discussion. But wikipedia policy is very clear - without consensus there can be no deletion, and articles cannot be proposed for deletion again after there has already been one proposal and discussion. Durruti36 19:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think there is some misunderstanding of rules. You should have referred to the deletion_discussion section instead of the proposed_deletion section.
  • Regarding the "silence", it probably just means that the other people have already expressed their views. From my side, I can just say that mention in one independent book is better than no mention. I still doubt it passes the criteria regarding mention in publications, as there seems to be just a passing mention of his starting a new school. Anyway, I just gave my views and will let others give their views. --Knverma 20:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: Non-notable, and no hits on google except for his homepage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hirohisat (talk • contribs) 22:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: Zen Master Dae Gak clearly meets the "notability criteria" for people. According to those criteria anyone who "has received significant recognized awards or honors" meets the notability requirements. Zen Master Dae Gak has received one of the highest honors possible in Zen Buddhism - that of "Dharma Transmission". This transmission is clearly referred to on the page in question. Here is Zen Master Dae Gak's Transmission Speech from the Summer of 1995 issue of Primary Point, the magazine published by the Kwan Um School of Zen. Durruti36 23:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't think that being a Zen Master is sufficient justification for having a Wikipedia article. Just look at the number of Zen Masters in the world who don't have Wikipedia articles on them. In particular this is an honor given by a school to its members and is not significant from an outside perspective. Something more is necessary to establish notability.-Knverma 23:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The criteria for notability are clearly met by anyone who receives significant awards or honors. Do you claim that receipt of Dharma Transmission is not a significant honor? Durruti36 00:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • As far as a google search on "Dae Gak" - I encourage anyone reading this discussion to try it for themselves. Among the "hits" are groups of his students in Washington, DC; Galveston, Texas; and Cincinatti, Ohio - as well as to the group in Brisbane Australia that is led by Master Dae Gak's most senior student, Zen Master Sen Shin, who leads the Queensland Zen Center. Durruti36 23:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
  • So he is well-known among his students. That doesn't establish notability. --Knverma 23:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The number and/or nature of google hits is not one of the accepted criteria for notability according to wikipedia guidlines. I was merely pointing out the factual innacuracy of the statement "no hits on google except for his homepage". Durruti36 00:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • From our article on Dharma_transmission it sounds equivalent to either the ordination of a priest or the award of a doctorate. Neither of those would automatically make an individual notable. Perhaps if the subject were the first American to receive the honor it would be different. As for other signs of notability, the Google hits I found were all along the lines of announcements of upcoming seminars, not substantive profiles of the man or his philosophy. Lastly, if anyone here is a student of the subject or has other significant involvement with him it'd be helpful to let others' know. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 03:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • You are making the mistake of relying on wikipedia as a reliable source. Zen Master Seung Sahn fully explained what he meant by "Transmission" in an interview he gave the year before Zen Master Dae Gak received transmission - here is a link to that speech. It is the Winter/Spring 1993 issue of Primary Point, which was completely devoted to the topic of "Dharma Transmission". To see the other articles in that issue go the Primary Point Archives and scroll down to that issue. Among other things, Zen Master Seugn Sahn says that "As more Zen Masters appear, their individual styles will emerge. Perhaps some of them will make their own schools. So maybe, slowly, this Korean style will disappear and be replaced by an American style or American styles." Master Dae Gak has, in fact, "made his own school" - whereas most of the people given Transmission by Seung Sahn have remained in the Kwan Um school. This is mentioned on page 106 of James Ishmael Ford's book "Zen Master Who?: A Guide to the People and Stories of Zen".Durruti36 14:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Regarding my significant involvement, no, not directly with him, though with Zen practice in general, and with Seung Sahn's Kwan Um School of Zen for the last 4-5 years. Yes, I earlier read articles by Dae Gak and found them interesting. Definitely I consider Dharma transmission to be a significant achievement from a Zen practitioner's point of view, but not something that establishes notability as required on Wikipedia. --Knverma 06:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that is a valid distinction - between what is "notable" to a Zen student, and what is more generally notable. However, this very modest, bare bones article does not make any grandiose claims about Master Dae Gak's "notability". It is a small, informational article about someone who by some standards might be considered "relatively unknown". Here is a quote from the wikipedia official policy on biographies of known persons: "Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known." In light of this any attempt to delete Master Dae Gak's entry clearly represents not only a highly selective application of the "notability" criterion, but one that is clearly at variance with stated wikipedia policies for biographies of living persons. Durruti36 14:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Durruti36, "notability" is just a guideline, one that serves to implement core polices such as neutral point of view and WP:verifiability. If a person isn't notable enough to have independent profiles then we are basing the entire article on what the subject says about himself. It's difficult to maintain a neutral point of view when our only source is the subject. How can we verify anything he says, beyond just saying it's "accoridng to the subject"? So "notability" isn't the sole concern, it's more of a shorthand for a set of concerns that come up with people about whom little or nothing has been written. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 01:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: This is a tough one. I spent hours editing and wikifying Dae Gak's entry. I know him and sat several retreats with him. I find him a charming and wise Zen teacher. Yet, according to WP:BIO's new criteria, he is not notable. As I understand it, Zen Master Seung Sahn considered being a Zen Master a job description whose duties included "great love, great compassion and only help this world." There are many jobs that are difficult to get (such as being a professor at an elite school) but that does not make one notable. Is being a Zen Master an award that you earn? Bob's PhD does not make him notable either. Finally, I also Googled ZMDG to find something... anything... to define notability. Maybe a mention of him in a book other than his own or something. I think Will Beback was looking for those types of things as well... not bean counting the results or refences on sangha web pages. Anyway, I wish I could find something to call this entry notable but I can not. In all fairness, it should be deleted. Killerbeez 01:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Factual correction to the above: Please see the reference above to James Ishmael Ford's book "Zen Master Who?" which includes references to both Master Dae Gak and to Furnace Mountain. This is clearly a "mention of him in a book other than his own". Durruti36 18:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. That does not change my mind. The reference is small and it does not offer any support to why this teacher is notable. Sincerely, he is virually unknown and has not yet made a significant contribution to Zen practice in America or the world. I suspect that he seems like big news to his sangha but we need to keep perspective regarding what is considered notable for Wikipedia. Killerbeez 23:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. The transmission speech link is no longer functioning. Do you have another one? Thanks Killerbeez 01:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep For people in fields where the transmission of information is primarily oral, I would like to find a way to establish notability. I haven't found one. Just perhaps, the training of students who go on to be notable is a criterion which has been used elsewhere, but although students are mentioned, nothing is said about their importance either. DGG 01:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. None of his students have done anything notable to date. There might be a time when Zen Master Dae Gak and his students are notable according to Wikipedia but not yet. Killerbeez 04:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Sorry to have to vote that since he seems like a good person who is making a positive contribution. He has not become notable to the world at large however and this is what decides notability to have a WP article. Steve Dufour 02:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, seeing no new response to my comments except the Dharma transmission fact. --Knverma 05:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Correction: The book "Violence at Kent State, May 1 to 4, l970: The Student's Perspective" was *not* Robert Genther's Ph.D. thesis, it was a separate book published by "College Notes and Texts" in 1971. The correct reference for this book can be found in the on-line article "THE MAY 4 SHOOTINGS AT KENT STATE UNIVERSITY: THE SEARCH FOR HISTORICAL ACCURACY" - which is by two sociologists at Kent State. Robert Genther's Ph.D. thesis was "Differences Between Black and White Patients in Short Term Psychiatric Hospitalization." Durruti36 17:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Wow, are you really WORKING IT trying to save this entry. I gotta admire your energy even as I doubt your direction. Anyway, It is great that he is a fourth publisher in a 35 year-old book that is not his dissertation. Yet, this book does not make him a notable academic. It is just a blip on his curriculum vitae. It is ironic that you tout this publication which is under his Western name at the same time you deleted that name from his entry. Killerbeez 23:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: For notability to be established, this Zen Master needs to be the subject of an independent, credible, in-depth biography; have name recognition; receive a significant honor (beyond his high level of ordination) or make history. He does not fit any of these criteria at this time in his career.Logrider 05:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Factual Correction: The receipt of "Dharma Transmission" is not connected with "levels of ordination", except perhaps in the Soto school, which Master Dae Gak is not associated with. Durruti36 14:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: Zen Master Dae Gak was an invited speaker in the year 2000 at the 800 year celebration of Dogen, Traces of Dogen Conference, held at Emory college in 2000.He has been the invited speaker for numerous functions in a variety of contexts including the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston Texas.For ten years the led Christian Zen retreats at the Abby of Gethsemane in Bards town KY the Monastery where Thomas Merton stayed.He was invited guest at the Gathering with the Dali Lama at The Abby of Gethsemane which celebrated the Dali Lama’s friendship with Thomas Merton.His calligraphy and art have been featured in Arts Across Kentucky, a Kentucky based magazine.His Calligraphy has been sold publicly through Dharma Crafts and other retail outlets.He was cited in the book, “Zen Master Who,” by James Ishmael Ford, published by Wisdom Press, 2006.He was the Key Note speaker at the Buddhist Conference for the Reconciliation of North and South Korea held in Seoul, Korea in 1987.He is listed in numerous publications and web sites as a prominent Zen teacher. By Logrider's criteria, most of the Zen teacher entries in Wikipedia will need to be deleted. =Jazzito 18:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)— Jazzito (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
You said he is listed in numerous publications. Could you point out these publications. That's one of the things we wanted to know. --Knverma 18:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
He was cited in "Only Doing It For 60 Years," a book about Zen Master Seung Sahn as well as having his own chapter in that book. He has been published multiple times in Primary Point. And if you read carefully there are several other citations listed in the discussion. Jazzito 21:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
We should point out, "Only doing it for 60 years" [1] is a collection of contributions from students of Seung Sahn. Primary Point is the school magazine of KUSZ. -Knverma 00:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. "Only doing it for 60 years" is a tribute book that was put together as a birthday gift from the students of Zen Master Seung Sahn. It is an homage to their teacher published by the Kwan Un School of Zen (Primary Point Press). Cute book with no Zen substance. Primary Point is the membership community newsletter of the Kwan Um School of Zen. It lists the activities/milestones of the school and a few talks. Jazzito and KwanSeumBosal have simply listed activities that a Zen Master is suppose to do: giving talks, running retreats, meeting with other Buddhist teachers, raising funds for their temples, being listed on the web in Zen Center directories, etc. This is just evidence that he is doing his job, it is not evidence of notability. Oh, it is appropriate to delete non-notable entries no matter what the person's profession. Killerbeez 17:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: His book 'Going Beyond Buddha' has been translated into Czech and German. The German publisher is 'Fischer Verlag' - one of the most important publishers in Germany. The book has been published in 1999 under the title 'Das Zen des Lauschens'. In 2001 Dae Gak has been invited by the University of Kassel, Compartment of Psychoanalysis to hold a speech about Zen and Psychoanalysis. He has students in Berlin, Witzenhausen, Kassel, Dresden, Nurimberg and also in Bristol, England and London. He is listed under www.zenguide.de among (contemporary) Zen Masters.KwanSeumBosal 20:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)— KwanSeumBosal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete, after much careful thought and taking in all that has been said above. I vote this way mainly per Logrider's points. Ref (chew)(do) 23:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, undue promotion. Mukadderat 15:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. I also agree with Logrider's points. --Evb-wiki 14:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.