Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cuisine of Kentucky (second nomination)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep but cleanup. (aeropagitica) 20:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cuisine of Kentucky (second nomination)
- DELETE Regions have cuisine: Kentucky is not a region but is a part of at least 2 regions. Those regions should have cuisine articles. Applachian portion of the state would have had Appalachian cuisine, Southwest area would have had cuisine typical for the south and Bluegrass region probably a mix of midwest and South. This article certainly doesn't inform about the differences. Steam power did not turn the native forest into arable land. Not relavant to this topic. This article is not cited and is poorly written. This article seems to have been started as a joke and other people seem to be unintentionally playing into this joke. This article doesn't seem to acknowledge the 20th century and modern grocery stores. Fast food corporations shouldn't be considered part of an area's cuisine. There are lots of chinese restaurants in Ky that doesn't mean they came about because of the area's cuisine. Just because Whitecastle started here doesn't mean that is the cuisine. That is a corporation. This article isn't worth fixing because if you remove all the errors, irrelavant material, slander, and non-neutral pov there wouldn't be anything left.-Crunchy Numbers 20:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep. I see plenty that could be salvaged, such as "Dishes or recipes of note in Kentuckian cuisine", and if other sections were redrafted, they could include a good deal of encyclopedic info. I agree that "Fast food" should definitely be nixed. Further, we don't delete articles just because they don't include citations. I am a Kentuckian, and I see enough in this article that rings true. Clean out what doesn't, and there would remain a minor, yet good article. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 20:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Comment: I don't see this listed on the AfD listing page. If others can't find this listing, then nobody else will participate. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 20:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)- Comment: "Dishes or recipes of note in Kentuckian cuisine"- Is Ale-8-One a dish or recipe? Beer cheese-this is the first time I've heard of it. Bourbon balls-my mom made those once from a recepe in Southern Living magazine. Johnny Cake-saw those in a movie one time. Stack cake-never heard of it. Maybe I should have set this up as a merge with the Kentucky article: The minor portion left after cleanup could be a paragraph or two in the main article. Then after people add more it could be branched off again. There would also be more light shed on some of these difficult to verify "facts" if it was in the main article. In the meantime I'm finding these wikifiction gems all over the net in articles copied from here. Thanks wikipedia.-Crunchy Numbers 14:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I've heard of beer cheese. I ran into a couple beer cheese makers at the Kentucky Crafted show in March. At any rate, many items in this list are hard to source, but experiential things are usually hard to source; that is, Kentuckians most likely contributed to that list from experience, so I don't think we should discount it lightly. Further, I see no issue with having a small article, if that's what we have left after modifications. It would be more than a stub, and certainly, it's a topic that will be expanded. Apparently, the consenus will be to keep, so merging it would be considered bad form. It causes no damage to sit as a separate article. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I saw some people making lye soap at the Appalachian Festival in Cincinnati this spring. Funny I've never seen anyone in Appalachia make it. Of course the Foxfire books tell how to make it. Is experiential unsourced material the same as original research?-Crunchy Numbers 16:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- In the case of culture and ongoing events, the question is pretty much irrelevant. There are often things we collectively know that aren't well-sourced. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- When you say 'culture and ongoing events' are you referring to Current events? According to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not Wikipedia is not a place to publish your own thoughts and analyses or to publish new information not heretofore published. Please do not use Wikipedia for any of the following:... 4. Opinions on current affairs ... 6. News reports. My understanding is that for things like the earth is round or that humans breath air and need oxygen we don't have to provide sources. For other things we know but others don't necessarily we must provide sources so that they can find more information and/or verify what we have written. I found some good articles about the cuisines in Louisiana. "Louisiana cuisine" is a category with one line that states Louisiana cuisine includes Creole and Cajun cuisines and others. Those articles are well written and seem to have sources. I wonder how the people in Louisiana would feel if someone added twizzlers and slim jims to the list of Cajun foods because a new slim jim factory gets built there. Or maybe the contents of a local 7-11 should be included. I would like to propose a challenge to anyone who can find reliable sources for this article. I will cook them a gormet dinner of squirrel liver with fava beans.-Crunchy Numbers 16:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- In the case of culture and ongoing events, the question is pretty much irrelevant. There are often things we collectively know that aren't well-sourced. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I saw some people making lye soap at the Appalachian Festival in Cincinnati this spring. Funny I've never seen anyone in Appalachia make it. Of course the Foxfire books tell how to make it. Is experiential unsourced material the same as original research?-Crunchy Numbers 16:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I've heard of beer cheese. I ran into a couple beer cheese makers at the Kentucky Crafted show in March. At any rate, many items in this list are hard to source, but experiential things are usually hard to source; that is, Kentuckians most likely contributed to that list from experience, so I don't think we should discount it lightly. Further, I see no issue with having a small article, if that's what we have left after modifications. It would be more than a stub, and certainly, it's a topic that will be expanded. Apparently, the consenus will be to keep, so merging it would be considered bad form. It causes no damage to sit as a separate article. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: "Dishes or recipes of note in Kentuckian cuisine"- Is Ale-8-One a dish or recipe? Beer cheese-this is the first time I've heard of it. Bourbon balls-my mom made those once from a recepe in Southern Living magazine. Johnny Cake-saw those in a movie one time. Stack cake-never heard of it. Maybe I should have set this up as a merge with the Kentucky article: The minor portion left after cleanup could be a paragraph or two in the main article. Then after people add more it could be branched off again. There would also be more light shed on some of these difficult to verify "facts" if it was in the main article. In the meantime I'm finding these wikifiction gems all over the net in articles copied from here. Thanks wikipedia.-Crunchy Numbers 14:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep The article has a few facetious or unsupported lines in it, which will doubtless be edited out. There would be lots of verifiable, notable and encyclopedic content left. There is indeed cuisine peculiar to Kentucky. It can have its own cuisine and still be related to 2 neighboring regions. Yum, sweet tea and barbecue, catfish and hushpuppies. Edison 22:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep It needs work, like every article on Wikipedia, but it has worthwhile information. Citations will be hard to come by for some of these facts, but I don't think it's preferable to delete the article rather than marking it as unsourced. I had never heard of burgoo or beer cheese until I came to Kentucky, and they are pretty popular foods here. Kentucky has a foot in more than one region, and it would be a disservice (and inaccurate) to simply say that Kentucky's cuisine is a hodgepodge of Midwestern, Appalachian, and Southern food. Finally, I think some editors object to the mention of squirrel and other antiquated dishes - I don't know anything about this, nor where to look it up, but that doesn't mean it wasn't true at one point. This article has already been posted for deletion (for the same reasons) and the consensus was to keep it. Lamont A Cranston 11:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Thanks for reminding me about the previous deletion nomination: all those people who voted to keep it then proceded to do nothing for the past year. I never suggested to say that Kentucky's cuisine is a hodgepodge of Midwestern, Appalachian, and Southern food. What I said was that the Appalachian portion of the state is Appalachian. The South western portion is mostly Southern. These days the differences are less and less. I've lived in both places and others and back in the days when people cooked I went to lots of dinners at people's houses. The Kentucky article already points out that Kentucky is part of these regions. I don't object to the mention of squirrel. I find it offensive and deceptive however when things are taken out of context. For example comparing the diet of people from Kentucky in 1825 with modern day America. People today who eat squirrel are called hunters and they have to buy a liscense. And forget about getting their wives to cook it for them; if it isn't wrapped in plastic with the name of a grocery store stamped on it, it isn't edible. -Crunchy Numbers 15:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lack of attention by Wikipedians isn't very pertinent in this case, as the article is not that bad. It's clearly salvageable, and some improvements have already been made. Further improvements can be made to distinguish regions and history. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I just remembered there are several restaurants in Cincinnati called "The Red Squirrel" but they don't seem to serve any Squirrel meat. Maybe someday when Kroger and other restaurants start selling it they can Start.-Crunchy Numbers 16:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lack of attention by Wikipedians isn't very pertinent in this case, as the article is not that bad. It's clearly salvageable, and some improvements have already been made. Further improvements can be made to distinguish regions and history. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Thanks for reminding me about the previous deletion nomination: all those people who voted to keep it then proceded to do nothing for the past year. I never suggested to say that Kentucky's cuisine is a hodgepodge of Midwestern, Appalachian, and Southern food. What I said was that the Appalachian portion of the state is Appalachian. The South western portion is mostly Southern. These days the differences are less and less. I've lived in both places and others and back in the days when people cooked I went to lots of dinners at people's houses. The Kentucky article already points out that Kentucky is part of these regions. I don't object to the mention of squirrel. I find it offensive and deceptive however when things are taken out of context. For example comparing the diet of people from Kentucky in 1825 with modern day America. People today who eat squirrel are called hunters and they have to buy a liscense. And forget about getting their wives to cook it for them; if it isn't wrapped in plastic with the name of a grocery store stamped on it, it isn't edible. -Crunchy Numbers 15:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep. It does need work, but there are many foods that are specifically identified with Kentucky as a state, not with vaguely defined "regions": from mint juleps and Bourbon whisky to Kentucky Fried Chicken. This certainly is not a subject about which nothing encyclopedic could ever be said, and what's there is a reasonable start. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- Fried chicken is typical of southern cooking. But the first Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant opened in Salt Lake City. Have you seen the Kentucky Fried Movie? I went to France last spring but couldn't find French Fries on the menu. They had heard of Freedom Fries but wouldn't serve them. Bourbon is a product of Kentucky. It seems to be most popular in Chinese restaurants at the malls where they pressure you to take a sample of bourbon chicken on a toothpick as you walk by. But they do that at the downtown mall in Indianapolis also. I didn't realize that the regions of America are so vaguely defined. I wonder how Kentucky Fried Squirrel would go over as a brand?-Crunchy Numbers 15:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- The KFC recipe is of Kentuckian origin, not Southern in general, although there's no question it's a Southern derivative. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Fried chicken is typical of southern cooking. But the first Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant opened in Salt Lake City. Have you seen the Kentucky Fried Movie? I went to France last spring but couldn't find French Fries on the menu. They had heard of Freedom Fries but wouldn't serve them. Bourbon is a product of Kentucky. It seems to be most popular in Chinese restaurants at the malls where they pressure you to take a sample of bourbon chicken on a toothpick as you walk by. But they do that at the downtown mall in Indianapolis also. I didn't realize that the regions of America are so vaguely defined. I wonder how Kentucky Fried Squirrel would go over as a brand?-Crunchy Numbers 15:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep: It needs work but there are many foods that can be associated with the state of Kentucky. The page can easily be suvdivided into regions using headers, per standard, such as "Regional Cuisine" and then divide it up into "Applachian", etc. I will agree that fast food corporations founded in Kentucky, such as KFC, would be better suited to the "economy". Seicer (talk) (contribs) 01:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep or possibly merge. Cuisine of California offers precedence for a state-based cuisine article; if the Kentucky cuisine is REALLY entirely regional and not at all state-based then the information from this article - plenty of which is good - must be incorporated elsewhere before deletion. The above comment regarding regional subheading and moving (detailed) restaurant info elsewhere would be a good idea, although I do think KFC merits a mention in passing. Nach0king 17:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- Keep. Not only is the subject notable, there is precedent to retain such articles. RFerreira 23:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
