Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cruel april

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. W.marsh 15:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cruel april

Cruel april (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Moved from speedy. Appears to be a series of bios, so could possibly be split up but will need to be thoroughly checked for NPOV. Two of the people on the list have articles. Tim! 11:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


  • Delete - May be a notable subject, but the complete absence of WP:RS makes it a big exercise in WP:OR. --Nehwyn 13:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete As sad or serious a story as this is, an encyclopedia is not the place for it. It is a personal account or a journal entry (or several of them), and doesn't belong here. Wavy G 15:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as WP:NOT memorial meshach 17:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete not a memorial as meshach points out -- Whpq 19:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete — Delete per Wavy G and meshach. –- kungming·2 | (Talk·Contact) 21:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Hold on - What makes Wikipedia great is that it is comprehensive and has the potential to include different points of view. This article is written to add to the history of the Vietnam war, that it did not end when the US withdrew in 1972. Biographies of each of these soldiers may be insignificant. But including them together is significant. This article helps depict the hopelessness of the South Vietnamese at the close of the war. My newphew was asked by his high school history teacher to write about the war from a personal point of view. He was born in this country and had a hard time finding information of that time. It will take time for me and others to add sources to the article. Patience please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.116.29.226 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete: I really can't see how this is going to become a noteworthy article. The information on these suicides belongs on the bios for the persons named, if anywhere. Heimstern Läufer 15:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Commnet as it stands, what your nephew produuced would seem to be original research. What's needed are sources to indicate that "Cruel april" is an actual event recognized as an entity. -- Whpq 13:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete if - If you did not learn anything new about the South Vietnamese soldiers. My presumption is that you think the US had no business being over there, that the South Vietnamese should have fought for themselves and that thousands of US soldiers died in vain. Is Wikipedia so small that it cannot afford to present a few tidbits of the fortgotten South Vietnamese soldiers, so that someone might learn something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.116.29.226 (talk • contribs)
Hello there. Wikipedia requires that references are mentioned to verify information. Can you do that, so that we can verify the accuracy of the content of the article? --Nehwyn 11:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, more research - I will do more research and would add more information about "Cruel April" which is the title of a book that I have read but misplaced and will have to locate/credit. The biographies will eventually be a minor link to the total capture of the month and the rapid collapse. Thanks for your suggestions and patience.
  • Delete - Simply because the article is unsalvageable. All it is now is an essay about an event with a POV title, and perhaps one book backing it up. WP:V & WP:N- one book does not a notable subject make. This is the only Vietnam related "Cruel April" result on Google. While google results are not inherently a measure of notability, I think that this paired with my above assertions are enough evidence to think the subject is NN. --Wooty  Woot? | contribs 07:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Cruel April is what the South Vietnamese themselves call the events that transpired that month. The communists call it Liberation. Of course you will not see the term when you google it. I agree the article needs work. But can you find anything that ties together what happened when in the course of one month, a nation of 20 million people fell to the enemy in the span of one month.

The Vietnamese Google talks about the events that unfolded in a propaganda style. No mention of the poor South Vietnamese, of the killings and the suicides. Like I said before, this article will eventually include the totality of the month and not just what happened to the soldiers. I do have some articles from the New York Times that can back up some of the contents. The rest about the soldiers, the Pentagon did a debriefing of the South Vietnamese political and military leaders in a series called Vietnam monographs shortly after the fall of Saigon. I will cite the sources and add footnotes and references (these are in storage right now).

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/saigon/articles.html#surrender http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%E1%BB%B1_ki%E1%BB%87n_30_th%C3%A1ng_4,_1975

The term is still not notable. Name a source which refers to the withdrawal or suicides as "Cruel April." --Wooty  Woot? | contribs 03:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

http://www.yale.edu/seas/bibliography/chapters/chap9.html. Several authors (politician/soldiers) recount their hardships and include the names that I included in the article.

No, you don't understand. We are not talking about the notability of the people (if they are notable, they should be separate biographies). You specifically lumped all of these suicides into a name called "cruel april". If this term is notable, then the article's title is appropriate. Otherwise, the article should be deleted, and the people in the article should be evaluated for their notability. If they are notable, a page may be created about them. --Wooty  Woot? | contribs 03:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • [1] - How about this?

Thang Tu means April, Chuyen Buon means Sad/cruel stories. This is a well known poem about the last days.

Uh, the page says "black April". But regardless, you need multiple sources, not just a poem which may or may not be about the term (see WP:NEO). I suggest at this point to go find sources for the other guys (one of them got AfD'd but it looks like he has a couple sources, so if you can repeat that with the other guys, you could just make a bio for each of them. Also consider the fact that the title of this page is NPOV. --Wooty  Woot? | contribs 05:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You are a pain in the ass, but you do have some good points and I do like the suggestions that you made for other articles you are reviewing. I include here the translation of the word, only because you insinuated that I made it up.:} http://vdict.com/bu%E1%BB%93n,2,0.html

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.