Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cremation of Care

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was KEEP. Coffee 10:24, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cremation of Care

Fringe conspiracy theory. Delete. Alternatively, if consensus considers it salvagable, then Merge and redirect with Bohemian Grove. khaosworks (talk • contribs) 03:04, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

• List at BJAODN and then delete. Harro5 03:04, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Interesting, despite the fact that there is videotaped footage and the Ceremony is written about in the Bohemian Grove article which has been edited by dozens of respected editors and despite the fact that the ceremony can be verifiable by googling it and finding the dozens of legitimate sources which have written about it, it is referred to as a "Fringe conspriacy theory" and is suggested to be sent to BJAODN? Khaosworks and Harro5, should I tell users: Uncle.bungle, Daniel Quinlan, Maveric149, Ed Poor, Jengod, Khranus, Oliver Crow, Hephaestos, Punarbhava, Hierarchypedia, TheGrza, and Fox News, NBC, Time Magazine and dozens of others that you consider their writings to be BJAODN-worthy and fringe conspiracy theories or shall you do it? -Wiffle0rz 03:11, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Also, in case anyone is too lazy to even do their research, I included links in the actual page which feature video and pictures. Here is a simple googling of the matter: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Cremation+of+Care%22&btnG=Search . -Wiffle0rz 03:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I have removed my delete vote, but still feel the subject of this VfD is a conspiracy theory. "The Cremation of Care is a Druid ceremony practiced at the Bohemian Grove with former US Presidents of the Republican party usually presiding as the main Druid masters." This actually reads as the single stupidest thing I have ever seen! Where's the proof Presidents were involved? Harro5 03:17, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
      • Harro5, I have changed the article to better suit this. Alex Jones has said that it was Presidents presiding over the ceremonies, but since this is only one source I have removed it and said that Presidents merely participated in it, which is something other sources have verified. -Wiffle0rz 03:22, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
    • More resources. Here is a FAIR article on it: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:y5flzv0a0dYJ:www.fair.org/index.php%3Fpage%3D1489+%22Walter+Cronkite%22+Bohemian+Grove&hl=en which mentions Walter Cronkite's participation in the event. More: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Walter+Cronkite%22+%22Bohemian+Grove%22&btnG=Search . Information on the Owl idol: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Bohemian+Grove%22+%22owl%22&btnG=Search . The fact that this article was put up for SPEEDY DELETE is something I frankly find appalling, someone decided that this was NONSENSE without obviously doing even the minimalist googling. I seriously think User: Wyss should be reprimanded for this especially if he is an admin and the entire Speedy Delete process should be looked into. -Wiffle0rz 03:19, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Having looked at your contributions to Wikipedia and noted how extreme your views, I see this whole thing as part of your own personal political agenda. Republican presidents getting off over killing babies...? Delete this patent nonsense. Harro5 03:51, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Read it... The ceremony involves the corpse of a dead child, wrapped in a cloak being floated down a makeshift river... with ex US presidents in attendance? Never mind if it Googles. It's patent nonsense and should have been speedied. Wyss 03:21, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Did you actually read the Bohemian Grove article which has been edited by dozens of respected users? Did you look up any sources? Click on any of the links. Whether your opinion may differ on the significance of the event is one thing, but the idea that this is nonsense? Apparently even if something is mentioned in the greater media and can be verified by many people including dozens here at Wikipedia it is still nonsense if it does not coincide with someone predisposed view. I now see how biased and close-minded Wiki is. -Wiffle0rz 03:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Futhermore, if you beleive that Presidents do not engage in weird things then I suggest you look up the initation ceremony to the skull n bones fraternity at yale, it is freely available on Yale's library index and reported elsewhere on the net, if you read it you will see both John Kerry and George W. Bush have participated in pseudo-Occult rites. -Wiffle0rz 03:26, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Bohemian Grove may exist, and the gatherings may exist, but this particular interpretation of it is still a fringe conspiracy theory. US Presidents? Animatronic owl statue? Dead child? Orgasming? None of this is mentioned at the main article, nor do I see it FAIR article you cite - the others appear to be usual conspiracy beating suspects. Cite reliable sources for the occult practices that this article claims. Whether or not US Presidents have been known to particpate in other rituals is irrelevant - show that they have in this one. At best, and this is really stretching it, it should be merged with Bohemian Grove. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 03:30, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Bohemian Grove is not up for VfD. When I see text asserting that ex US presidents float the corpses of dead kids down makeshift rivers in a Druid ceremony, I say "speedy." Wyss 03:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, perhaps. While this sounds crazy, I did find this which states

  [There are] three major stage events at each Summer Encampment. The first, called "Cremation of Care," is a bizarre production on the opening night of every encampment, a ritualistic ceremony involving hundreds of participants. It ends with the symbolic burning in effigy of a wooden skeleton in a coffin that represents the end of the cares of the world.

  That seems perhaps more reasonable. Stating that ex-Republican presidents float corpses down a "make-shift" river is totally unacceptable. Mmmbeer 03:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. I spent an hour sifting through many sites, and found a reference to this ceremony that seeems legit (to me, anyway). A author/journalist named Philip Weiss has written for the NYT and Slate. In 1989 he published an article in Spy magazine about the Bohemian Grove. There is a reprint of an article at Conspirancy Archive that describes this ceremony. I don't have access to Spy magazine back issues to check the original publication matches this "reprint", but it looks legit to me. I've not seen anything from Philip Weiss that claims this article was not written by him. Now, closer to the article at hand, his account of the ceremony differs from the article in many respects, but it's my understanding that this alone is not a reason for deletion. Would somebody like to try revamping the article from a NPOV, and citing sources? (Oops, after spending over an hour on this, I forgot to include my sig David Henderson 04:09, 20 August 2005 (UTC))

• Following all the progress made with the content, I'll change to Keep Merge now, since I'm confident the unacceptable, unsupported content will be revised or qualified. However, it's a huge stretch from an effigy to a child's corpse, that, and Wiffle0rz's contribution history, are what caused me to put up the speedy tag originally. His Child Abuse in Government Schools went up onto VfD at about the same time. Wyss 04:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• Comment. There is a real ceremony by this name. However, this article stretches credulity at the moment. However, I would vote to keep a decent stub. Capitalistroadster 06:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep I rewrote the article to include what is more or less verifiable. Sorry didnt include sources although Im sure most of it is available online. Sorry also if the writing sucks, first Wiki article ive done. Oh and this definitely isnt nonsense, the original guy who wrote it just apparently couldnt tell the differene between an actual event and something that is merely a play/production. Although there is some concern to be had over why US Presidents are attending an event where the effigy skeleton of a child is being burned, fake or not :-/. This could go intot he Bohemian Grove article but atm that one just has a quote on this and not an actual description per se so I can see why the article was written. I say keep. -TruthTeller 07:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• Merge into Bohemian Grove. Please adjust your tinfoil hats before proceeding. Alphax ^τεχ 08:12, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
• Merge into Bohemian Grove. Frankly, this is way too unsupported and tinfoil hat as it stands. JDoorjam 13:04, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
• Merge with Bohemian Grove. Merits inclusion based on the 1977 NYT and other coverage, but not as an article PlainSight 13:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect. I listed two versions of the earlier page at BJAODN. --Matt Yeager 22:00, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep TruthTellers rewrite. Apparently, the effigy is based on the guy of Guy Fawkes Day fame. Otherwise, it should be merged with Bohemian Grove. Capitalistroadster 02:54, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: Please see the Talk page of the article for more information on the Walter Cronkite-Owl connection which was removed from the article by an user. -Wiffle0rz 04:48, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.