Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Constantinos Makrides

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. --Coredesat 02:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constantinos Makrides

  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related page deletions. KRBN 00:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Constantinos Makrides (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable player, since he does not meet the criteria of WP:BIO since he has never played in a fully professional league, however playing in a semi-professional league and very weak like the Cypriot. He is only known in Cyprus. KRBN 02:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep he is an international. ArtVandelay13 00:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep College sports players in the United States, for example, are considered notable under WP:N. And this is an internation; in football, that says a lot. Xiner (talk, email) 01:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep To counter every one of KRBN's arguments:
  1. He currently plays for the Cyprus national football team. He has played against teams such as France (for WC 2006), Ireland, Wales, Germany (for UEFA 2008) etc etc. Hence he attracts attention well beyond the shores of Cyprus (the Irish seem to remember him quite well following the infamous 5-2 [1]): see his profile on L'Equipe [2], the BBC [3], Eurosport [4] etc etc etc. His name clocks several hundred Google hits [5] including Sky Sports [6], ESPN, Fox sports and so on.
  2. He plays top division football for APOEL FC in Cyprus. As such he meets the criteria noted here:[7] ...sportspeople who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing... May I draw the attention to the equivalent standing as Cyprus has a semi-professional league. He also complies with '...footballers who have been capped for any national team...
  3. He has also played in UEFA competitions at club level for APOEL FC.
In fact it's beyond me that this player is even considered for deletion. StephP 02:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, as does not meet WP:BIO. Edeans 02:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Having 24 appearances with the national team constitutes "the highest possible level". Caknuck 02:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep As per the intent of WP:N and Meta: Wiki is not paper, this article should not be deleted; verifiable information is available about this person and there is reason to believe that more than a few people might be interested in this person. The list of groups on WP:BIO is not exclusionary, so not meeting that particular definition of notable athletes alone should not be grounds for deletion.Techieman 06:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Has international caps, seems notable enough. -- Mattythewhite 08:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. 24 caps is definitely notable enough. Realkyhick 08:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep there is no way that a player who has represented his country 24 times could not be considered notable ChrisTheDude 08:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep WP:BIO states"...as performing in a fully professional league or at the highest level..." How does one get higher than representing their country (several times) on the ineternational scene?
If he is worthy of having a profile on UEFA's official site [8] how can he be dismissed from wikipedia? Georgeg 08:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Clearly notable 24 international caps is very notable. Jules1975 11:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep for playing international football. Meets at least the spirit of WP:BIO - fchd 14:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Nominator seems to be correct, it does fail WP:BIO and the article has some anti NPOV text.TellyaddictEditor review! 16:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Tellyaddict, may I kindly ask, can you clarify that you believe that 24 international caps (as stated above) would still mean he fails WP:BIO (for sportspeople) "...as performing at the highest level..."? Georgeg 16:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well it's a high number of goals and seems to be a good player it's just I don't personally think it meets WP:BIO - thanks for your understanding!TellyaddictEditor review! 16:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • REPLY TO BELOW QUESTION Well after searching on google (UK) for it it did not return many relevant results except for the wikipedia article which we are discussing, therefore making it less likely to be notable, yes this player has good contributions to footabll but I'm generally going to stick with oppose because of it's google results and general notability and level of importance. The highest level what WP:BIO refers to in my opinion is an article about someone who is not worldwidely known, for example - a community worker who is recognised in the local community for good work but has had no international and worldwide fame, but this is jusy my opinion, I hope you understand.TellyaddictEditor review! 20:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I see you are aiming to become an administrator, so I would appreciate some guidance. What in your opinion represents this highest level that WP:BIO refers to? Plus, you claim it fails WP:BIO but you give no reason. Would you please elaborate? I have made it clear in my entry why I think it passes WP:BIO. Georgeg 16:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I’m afraid I don’t understand. I get the feeling you are either avoiding or not understanding the arguments and the issue at hand. Let me rephrase things to make it crystal clear:
WP:Bio states that a sportsman should be considered as notable if he or she ...performs at the highest level.... I, and many others here argue that being picked to play for one's country on an international level (such as FIFA world cup or UEFA competition qualifiers) and especially against the likes of Germany, France, Ireland and so on, constitutes that highest level.
Now you obviously disagree with that. And fair enough, that might be your opinion. However, still in your opinion, and especially as a self confessed potential future administrator, what constitutes that highest level of achievement in a football player? In other words what should a football player need to have achieved in order for you to consider him or her as notable? Not in a community worker as you refer to above, (or in any other profession at hand) but in a football player. I expect you to have an opinion if you’ve taken the trouble to vote in this discussion. (Also would you be kind enough to paste your reply in chronological order. ie below this paragraph and not above it)Georgeg 23:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - easily meet WP:BIO as a national squad member. -- Whpq 16:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, this would be a delete if he weren't a national team player. Punkmorten 17:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. An established international for a country with an equal ranking to that of Wales. Oldelpaso 19:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete I think there are some rules we all have to respect. WP:BIO says exactly for players who have played for fully proffessional league. Cyprus is not a fully professional league and not only that, we are talking for a very weak championship, by which having just a participation in that league can not at all be considered notable. The level in Cyprus is generally low and not only the championship but the national team as well is very weak, one of the weakest in Europe. Getting the pride to play for such national team, can not be considered notability since, playing for such a national team cannot considered notability. This is not my POV, but however the rules in WP:BIO do not refer about national team participation, since if there was a notability by playing for national team, it would have been refered in WP:BIO. By saying highest level it does not mean playing with national team. Because national team have even, Cyprus, Faroe, Bagladesh, Somalia. It is natural that media in a report for a match will refer about player's name since he played in that match but however to be international can not be considered notability.
Highest level means by playing in Champions League or UEFA Cup groups, in a semi final or final of those competitions or playing in World Cup or European Championship. If he does that, even if he played for APOEL, then yes means that player is notable. I think if you want international appearances to be included, then change WP:BIO. But rules will be violated if that too non-notable player will be included.
I also recommend you to take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Clubs#Current_squad, for which players must be wikilink to have their own article. It says, (Current squad of the club. Players should only be wikilinked if notable enough to merit their own article. "Generally speaking, professional clubs should have wikilinked players, but semi-professional clubs should not". User:KRBN 23:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment Well, a semi-pro club would often have a few players whose earlier careers fit WP:BIO, so there would have some players wikified (e.g. St Albans City F.C.). APOEL fit this definition and Makrides deserves to be wikified (and have an article). ArtVandelay13 22:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment for KRBN KRBN, I would suggest you read the whole (and not just stick to the beginning) of WP:BIO paragraph for sports people. At the very end of the paragraph it clearly states that apart from playing in a fully professional league a player can be considered notable if he performs at the highest level. Now I have not noticed anyone in this discussion claim that every APOEL player deserves a wiki article, because as it stands they might not. You seem to repeatedly overlook that the argument here rests on Makrides’ achievements on the international stage and not with his career in APOEL.
So would you be kind enough to clarify this for me: are you suggesting that 24 caps for the Cyprus national football team is not a notable achievement? (ie does not constitute performing at the highest level - above, you have defined that the highest level = playing in a Champions League or UEFA Cup group but where did you pluck that definition from? Is it perhaps your personal opinion?) If that’s so I urge you to quickly glance at the latest FIFA rankings where Cyprus is on par with Wales[9]; then please nominate some Welsh national football team players for deletion (because every single one of them has an article, even Ryan Valentine who has 0 caps and plays for Wrexham!). StephP 00:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Further addition for KRBN's review:
And btw KRBN, I’ve come up with something else. Do you think we should delete the article on Sotiris Kaiafas? (for the others following this discussion this is a Cypriot player who was awarded the European Golden Boot award in 1975/76) I personally think Kaiafas is one of the most notable players ever to come out of Cyprus, however he:
  1. did not compete at the highest level (as you try to define it),
  2. he has less caps for Cyprus than this player and
  3. the Cyprus league in his time was not even semi-pro, it was a purely amateur competition!
StephP 11:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep full international with 24 caps, Cyprus are not one of the Weakest teams in Europe as claimed above, they are much better than the likes of San Marino and Andorra. Any team to have recently beaten the Repulblic of Ireland 5-2 cannot possibly be considered one of the worst.
Also notability is not defined by the number of hits in a google search, this method of defining notability has an obvious bias towards modermn popular culture. Im sure a google search for Raven Riley (pornstar) gets more google hits than say Karl Landsteiner (Nobel Prize winner in 1930). Does this mean that she is more worthy of a wikipedia article?Regards King of the North East 13:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment StephP, what is the achievement? To play for a national team such as Cyprus??????????????? Cyprus may have got few good results in the last 2 of three matches, suprizes can happen howeverdon't forget how was this national team doing the last years (beating only san marino, malta and andorra). By saying that Cyprus is one of the weakest in Europe, I don't mean it is same level with Andorra. Highest level I don't mean only champ.League and Uefa Cup but also final rounds of World Cup, Euro etc.. Highest level sure are the world cup and euro final rounds and sure are much lower level (that's right cannot be defined as highest level) their qualification rounds by having teams such as Burkina Faso or Cyprus. However, I am asking you the same question, who told that highest level is just to play with national team, eventhought if this national team is Andorra or Cyprus. As about Ryan Valentine, he is not having an article just because he plays for Wales NT rather that he plays for a fully professional league such as the English. Because of this, I have no right to purpose him for deletion since he satisfy the rules of WP:BIO. Of course you will tell me, Wrexham sure is weaker than APOEL, however, it is fact that plays in a fully professional league. If you are aksing my POV, WP:BIO should have strengthen the rules of inclusion of footballers and such players, even if they are Ryan Valentine, shouldn't be even there and I would like to purpose him for deletion, however the rules are rules, anad we all must respect them in both cases about Makrides and Ryan Valentine. As for Kaiafas, despite I believe that you understand why he is considered notable, I refresh your mind that he is notable, since he won the European Golden Boot, which means top goal scorer of Europe. Becoming a European winner, there is no doubt about the notability of any player.

For Mr King's comments wikipedia's rules about notability and google search are specific and the fact that you want articles to be included up to your own ideas are obvious.

User:KRBN 02:22, 10 February 2007

i am sorry KRBN, but to me you seem to contradict yourself. On the one hand you claim that Makrides does not meet WP:BIO criteria. On the other hand Kaiafas who (as illustrated in my previous entry) meets less of the same criteria by your definition, apparently deserves an exception due to the golden boot award. Unless I am missing something somewhere there is absolutely no reference in WP:BIO of golden boots (or any other award as a matter of fact) being a notability criterion. Don’t get me wrong, I think that Kaiafas was a great player and should never be considered for deletion, however you have to admit that by your own definitions so far, he does not meet your or WP:BIO’s notability criteria.
And yes, I agree with you. Cyprus is not the strongest football side in the world, but it is in the top 40% (73rd out of 206) of this planet. You’ve made it obvious that this is no achievement in your books but like it or not, Cyprus certainly competes at the highest level by most other editors’ opinion. So to answer your question with the thousand question marks, yes, I think 24 caps at international level is an admirable achievement. Unfortunately the meaning of highest level is not clearly defined in WP:BIO so we could go on and on and on as to what you or I think it represents. I guess we will just have to wait and see what the administrators think.StephP 03:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't contradict myself at all. Kaiafas winning the golden boot, he became top scorer of Whole Europe!!! This is too strong reason to be called notable. Also if you want to compare those players, Kaiafas awarded in Uefa Jubille Awards as the best Cypriot footballer ever! And yes, becoming in the top of Europe is a great reason to be considered highest level Having capacity of 24 appearance with a weak nationalt team in friendlies and qualification rounds can not be compared for what Kaiafas had achieved. I will not have problem if you put that article also for deletion because it will be sure not deleted. Another last point, Imagine if any player who is international is considered notable; Andorra may have hundred footballers, same for Malta even if they play in the worst level of football and even may be someone has just one appearance. Can you Imagine?????? KRBN 17:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
  1. I hate repeating myself, but did you just skip this bit of my last paragraph? Don’t get me wrong, I think that Kaiafas was a great player and should never be considered for deletion I DON’T THINK KAIAFAS should be deleted. It is only the third time I am saying it! How clear can I make myself?
  2. I’m getting tired of this conversation with you. I think your arguments are weak and do not stand, and it comes as no surprise to me that most of your past nominations have been rejected. [10], [11],[12],[13] I guess you won’t be surprised if this one fails too.StephP 17:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as per the commenters above, meets WP:BIO guidelines. Yamaguchi先生 08:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.