Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Concepción Heredia-Rosas

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. --Fang Aili ^說嗎? 01:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concepción Heredia-Rosas

This woman doesn't exist except for on WP and through the fringe "monarchist" who seems to have created the article and has littered the internet with mention of a rightful Imperial Family for Mexico. The woman in question, if she exists, is totally non-notable and has not submitted any claim for the throne. The basis of the weak argument is that a "Habsburg" of a different line from Maximilian and not one of his descendants, blood or otherwise, can claim the throne when he adopted two descendants of a previous Mexican Emperor? Strange and far-fetched. This seems to be a joke article or one written by someone along the lines of those supporting "The Imperial College of Princes and Counts" (fake). Charles 00:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete hoax. Maddox college for Girls doesn't exist, either. porges 00:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• I would like to add that Mexico does not allow any open claim to the throne, and therefore I do not see why the fact that she is not known by many is synonym of non-notable. The adopted children of the previous Emperor renounced their rights to the throne of Mexico after the revolution took over the country, therefore I do not see why you are even considering them. With this Mexico is left without an heir, and therefore monarchists might quite rightly consider more collateral family members of the Habsburg family in Mexico, and from what I read Ana Victoria was very closely related to Maximilian. Thinking that Wikipedia is for the public, we must remember that that means different opinions. I am not a monarchist myself, but I have to say that the thing that distinguishes Wikipedia from other encyclopedias is the fact that you can find everything, and it’s always helpful to have both sides of a story. I definitely do not think that this article should be deleted on the basis of the above argument that seems to be more like a personal comment. I would be very disappointed if Wikipedia loses that balance by deleting a perfectly acceptable article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FERS (talk • contribs)

  If it is a pseudonym, it does not exist in use. If this woman existed, she could not claim the throne as a member of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine for two reason: 1) She would be a descendant in the female-line and therefore not a member of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine and 2) she would be the descendant of a morganatic marriage and therefore not a member of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine. There are other dynastic, collateral branches of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine who could claim the throne of Mexico if there were provisions to do so. Since there are not, either the Habsburg-Iturbides (Goetzen-Iturbide) are dynasts or no one is. Non-dynasts (especially ones that do not exist) cannot be listed as pretenders since there is no ambiguity on their claims. They down-right do not exist. Wikipedia is not here to wave around hoax claims. By the way, isn't it peculiar that your first and only edit is on this page? Charles 17:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

PS. I researched about Maddox college and it did exist in the early 1930s, but was then closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FERS (talk • contribs)

In answer to your last question I have signed-in just because I wanted to post my opinion in this discussion. The reason? I am just doing what I think is fare, especially after your insinuations that that woman does not exist. I am Mexican by birth and I have heard of Concepcion Heredia before, so this will hopefully make you drop the idea that she doesn’t. One of my best friends belongs to a society or something similar that gathers to discuss the role of the monarchy in Mexico. From this friend is that I heard of that woman and according to him she is the heir to the throne, but she obviously does not promote herself openly because she lives in Mexico and it is illegal. I commented to my friend about this article and read him your last post and argument. This is was his answer:

1 - In effect, she is not claiming the Throne of Mexico in name of the Habsburg-Lorraine family. 2 - It is not correct to refer to the Goetzen-Iturbide family as the Habsburg-Iturbide, because they have no blood claim over the last emperor, and their dynastical claim was renounced with the abdication of both adoptive children of Maximilian. Therefore that line has no claim whatsoever, and this has been ratified several times. 3 – In conclusion, Mexico has no possible legal claimant to its “Throne”. What the imperialist group of the Mexicans now did was look for the most appropriate Habsburg family member to offer their support. That woman in the article was chosen because, according to them, she is the Habsburg with the longest history in Mexico and is direct descendant of Ana Victoria who was the closest family member of Maximilian and supported him in the south when he was ruling. The claim does not involve the Habsburg-Lorraine family, nor any other claim, it is just a new offering of the Mexican crown to a new royal by the modern conservadores that offered the crown to Maximilian nearly 150 years ago. I knew how passionate this group is about this, and since I study history I thought it would be interesting to let everyone know that it is a major claim (it has its own centre and around 100 members) and not one to be ignored. I wish to contribute and help improve wikipedia in the future, and I am glad to have started with this discussion.

You have cited no proof of the existance of this woman, no proof of the existance of any organization and have not cited any laws making the promotion of a claim to the defunct Imperial throne illegal. How can this woman claim the Imperial throne, given that she is not descended in any way from the last Mexican emperor? There are absolutely no children of Archduke Louis mentioned anywhere. You say that this claim is based on her being an appropriate Habsburg family member, then say it has nothing to do with the Habsburgs at all. She is not the Habsurg with the longest history in Mexico. She is not a Habsburg at all. There was no offer of the crown onto any other line to a new royal, one who doesn't exist and would not be royal in the first place. This article is merely a means to try to discredit the adoptive Iturbide line. Your "friend" apparently lacks credibility when it comes to whether certain people really exist or not. Charles 18:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly not illegal to talk about the claim to the Mexican throne in Mexico. I remember, for instance, when El Universal published an interview with Agustin Goetzen-Iturbide a few years ago. The confusion may arise by an article in the Mexican Constitution that bans citizens from accepting titles or honors bestowed by a foreign sovereign without permission from Congress.

That aside, I cannot say I've heard of this woman or her claim before. A person that touts herself as the "Lady of Campeche" would be notorious even if only as a folk curiosity. It would be interesting to check if the Almanach de Gotha has/had any mention of the purported members of this family line. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 20:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

There is proof of the existnce of this woman (in answer to Charles three posts up) and there is also an organisation that supports the Habsburg-Gueroust family, along with proof of their relations and support from other Royal houses. The Monarchist Movement of Mexico (www.mm-mexico.org), the only worthwhile noticing pro-monarchy organisation in Mexico not only shows her as one of the claimants to the throne, but supports them as THE official one. There are several other websites that include the Habsburg-Guerousts (e.g. http://thepeerage.com/i717.htm#s12779) and their family tree, some with pictures of the family. It is ridiculous that the Iturbide family is so trusted when they only have one website (casaimperial.org) to back them up, but there seems to be no upset regarding their position. I have not yet seen a picture of Maximilian Gotzen (he does not officially have the surname Iturbide, only his grandmother from maternal line which is not possible to inherit in Austrialia unless surname changes by deed-pol) but yet I do not attack his claim since there is no REAL claimant - it is believed that 99% of the population in Mexico is ignorant of any of the pretenders to the ´throne´. I think that people should take back most the misunderstanding and put back some of the links regarding the Habsburg-guerousts. John Labore (talk) 21:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete with extreme prejudice. Hoax. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per almost the same reason I voted to delete Sao Pan Thee: almost 8 months, seemly several contributors, and not a single reference to verify the claim. Hoax. -- ReyBrujo 02:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The criteria used to judge this article should not be whether Concepción Heredia-Rosas is the rightful pretender to the former Mexican throne, but whether she is someone who is notable for claiming, or for other people claiming on her behalf, that she is the rightful pretender to the throne. (For example, Michael Lafosse claims to be the rightful king of Scotland; his claim is bogus but has been discussed in the media, so there is no problem with him having a Wikipedia article.) This article provides no sources to back up its claims, making it too difficult to verify. Thus, it should be deleted unless it is improved to be of encyclopedic quality. --Metropolitan90 03:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Just Speedy Delete it, already! It's an obvious hoax, albeit one of the more interesting ones I've seen lately. wikipediatrix 04:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - not notable even as a pretender - Skysmith 12:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, nn and hoax. --Terence Ong 14:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Terence Ong. DarthVader 14:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete w/o prejudice as unverified; if sources can be found for its claims, I would cheerfully vote to restore it. I would also note that the Mexican Empire page notes two competing lines of succession for possible pretenders to the throne of Mexico. This information also perhaps needs to be verified. Smerdis of Tlön 14:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. If it turns out that there is no such person and it is a hoax, ban the hoxer indefinitely. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 18:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as unverified. --Tango 19:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as unverified and probable hoax. Mentions in Mexican Empire should be removed as well. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 20:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as unverified. I have enough trouble keeping up with pretenders that verifiably exist. Choess 21:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.