Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Circus metal (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete out-of policy recreation, but I will userfy it for Pwrong. Cool Hand Luke 00:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Circus metal

Circus metal (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Previously deleted (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Circus metal) and recreated in March 2007, the article has no actual sources. It's mostly original research, and the bands listed are not always very similar in style. Overall, the term is not notable (with only 661 results on Google, and is most likely a neologism for the experimental rock that is featured in Mr. Bungle's debut album. Considering that the article has been deleted numerous times, I would think protecting the page from re-creation would not be a bad idea. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 18:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Why is this listed as the 2nd nomination, when there is already a 4th nomination from March 2006? Is this current nomination actually the 5th? If so, where are the listings for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd AfDs? ---Theoldanarchist_Comhrá 19:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply Apparently, the page underwent five AfD's, including this one. I don't know where the 2nd and 3rd went, but according to the fourth nomination, this current one must be the fifth. This is why I recommend that this page be protected from re-creation. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 11:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply How much would we need to do to keep this article from being deleted? It's a valid genre. I don't think there's any other genre to describe some of these bands.Pwrong

• Reply That's the thing: it's not a valid genre. A quick google search will show you only 657 results, and without Wikipedia links in there, it's only 544 results. Let me show you what other, relatively unknown genres give in a Google search. Funeral doom metal = 22,400 results, Drone metal = 26,300 results, Sleaze glam = 27,300 results. When we search for pages (not including Wikipedia) that contain both the terms "circus metal" and "Mr. Bungle" (since it apparently the most notable of all the bands cited), we get 220 results, and the vast majority of all those links are MySpace, Urban Dictionary, and Amazon reviews. In fact, there are more results for "Clown metal" than for "circus metal". So to answer your question, all you need to do to keep this article from being deleted is making it become (through the use of I don't know what miracle) a recognized genre, because as of now, it is not. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 12:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply Ok, I concede it's not a recognised genre. But it's still a great genre, and I'm disappointed at the lack of interest in this kind of music. If the article has to go that's ok. Could it get a mention on the avant garde metal page or something? Or alternatively is there another name for a similar genre? DFD and tub ring aren't labelled as avant garde, nor should they be. But there's definitely a huge similarity between the three bands. The tub ring page even mentions it:

"Tub Ring adopted the similar sounds of Mr. Bungle. ... Eventually, in the late 1990s and early 2000s a new scene of weird music arose, with Tub Ring, Dog Fashion Disco and Mindless Self Indulgence leading the way as a new underground musical revolution started."

Like I said on the talk page, I discovered all these bands through this article, when I was looking for bands similar to Bungle (like the way the structure and style changes many times in a song). DFD and Tub Ring were exactly the sort of thing I wanted, and I haven't found any better kind of music since. I'd like to hear more from people who like this kind of music before it gets deleted. Pwrong 13:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply That's fine with me. ^^ I also think it should deserve a mention in another article. It would probably be best to cite it in the Mr. Bungle article with something like: "Mr. Bungle and bands who sound similar to Mr. Bungle's debut album are recognized by some as representatives of a new musical genre called "circus metal". Such bands include Tub Ring, Dog Fashion Disco and Mindless Self Indulgence." What do you think? I think it would be best if we save a copy of the article, finish the AfD to get it over with, and discuss the mention of the alleged genre on our talk pages. Is that okay? ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 14:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply Sounds good. A description on the Mr Bungle page would be perfect. Let's see what Ghost of Famine thinks.Pwrong 02:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion and stop re-creation Wikipedia is about reliable information, this is clearly not it. If people continue to make the page and can not provide correct information then your only option should be to stop it from being re-created. Deliciously Saucy 20:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply Ok, I've mentioned it to the Mr. Bungle page under "style and influence". Where would you save a copy of the page? I'm ok with it getting protected as long as its saved somewhere. Pwrong 16:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I’ve got no problem with it being in the Mr. Bungle page but it really needs to be cited which is probably going to be difficult if it's not a recognized genre. In the paragraph as it stands there is also lots of generalizations such as “These bands”, which bands?, “The most notable of these bands” who says they are the most notable?, “several upcoming bands” more specifically who? If it can be cleaned up and cited it would be a good addition to the Mr. Bungle article. - Mr Bungle | talk 01:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply Tub Ring and DFD are the only other circus metal bands notable enough to have a decent article about them, so wikipedia says they are the most notable. They're also the oldest and most successful bands on the list (apart from bungle). They're also the only bands with a decent wikipedia article about them. I don't know how you can find sources for that kind of thing. The upcoming bands are listed in this article; the ones I know are CODS, SMB, Sleigor Trout and Headkase. I can put some of them in. Do you think the article should be longer? Most of the new bands describe themselves as circus metal on their myspaces and cite Bungle as an influence. So should we use their myspaces as a source? I've seen circus metal mentioned on plenty of reviews and forums, is it ok to cite those? If this really isn't going to work, what if we just mention the bands, with no mention of circus metal? I mean it currently says that Bungle influenced Korn, Incubus and Limp Bizkit. But they obviously had a lot more influence on DFD and Tub Ring. I'm sure we can find sources for that.Pwrong 15:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.