Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Regenhard

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete

The arguments to delete here are particularly strong.

Firstly Wikipedia is neither a newspaper archive nor a memorial. This is a statement of Wikipedia policy. The life of this man, which is of great import to his immediate family, his colleagues and friends, is however of little or no encyclopedic significance.

Secondly this is a recent enough death that the biographies of living persons policy does apply, as argued by B. Wolterding amongst others. This is a person known only for one event. All encyclopedic aspects of the event should be covered with due weight in the relevant articles (and nearly six years after the event, they already are).

This young man did not live a life that should be recorded in an encyclopedia. The manner of his death, and those other many others that day, has been covered adequately in this encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 16:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Regenhard

Christian Regenhard (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Notability. This person, who was a New York City Firefighter who died in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, lacks notability as defined in WP:Notability. He is simply one of the 343 New York City Firefighters who died on that day, and outside of the New York City area, he is virtually unknown. The only reason that he has any name recognition at all is because of the post-9/11 actions of his mother, Sally Regenhard, who is an activist for change in skyscraper safety. In addition to the notability issues, the article contains unsourced and unreferenced material, irrelavant external links, as well as photos from questionable sources. 68.174.26.32 12:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete. Any minor notability this person has is purely happenstance or borrowed. This article was probably submitted by an adherent of the nonsensical "the world changed forever on 9/11" concept. As a two-time Iraq vet, I say, get a life people. --Nonstopdrivel 12:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep - The subject's unfortunate death has caused a national movement and organization that will shape the future of Ground Zero and the future of skyscrapers built in the USA. Personal attack removed. Uncle G 15:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC). The deceased subject has brought Hillary Rodham Clinton to the spotlight and she memorialized him in a new center for fire safety studies at John Jay College. Everything has been sourced and referenced in the article. Personal attack removed. Uncle G 15:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Furthermore, the article contains hyperlinks to major newspapers such as the San Francisco Chronicle and the St. Petersburg Times. If he wasn notable, these newspapers which are located far away from NYC will not even discuss him. Therefore points taken:
    • His death launched a movement and organization that now has a say in the development of Ground Zero.
    • He is memorialized with a center at a NYC college, same way Medgar Evers was memorialized in NYC with a college in his name even though he never lived in NYC.
    • Hillary Rodham Clinton and other senators have stepped up to bat to memorialize his legacy.
    • He is covered by notable newspapers in articles
    • This is a biography stub for the moment. It will eventually grow with the contributions of other editors.
    • His name was mentioned in the 9/11 Commission.
    • There are many victims of 9/11 (Mark Bingham, Todd Beamer, Tom Burnett, Andrew Garcia, etc.) who all have articles on this site and no one has a complain. They were memorialized in film and books. Christian is being memorialized by politicians and social activists.

If I find an other point to validate entry I will return and post.--XLR8TION 13:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete: Wikipedia is still not a memorial. More than half the information and links in this relatively short article are, in fact, about his mother.  RGTraynor  13:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I know the difference between Wikipedia and legacy.com; This is an article not a memorial with virtual flowers and flags.--XLR8TION 13:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Despite the comments of "XLR8TION" (who is the author of the article) defending the notability of Christian Regenhard, this individual has no real notability outside of the New York City Fire Department and related nomenclature. Is this person notable simply for having the misfortune of being one of the almost 3,000 individuals who died in the 9/11 terrorist attacks? If that were the case, then articles about each one of the thousands of people who died on 9/11 would appear on Wikipedia. I think that this article probably should be deleted or at least merged into the article about the September 11, 2001 attacks. Issue brought up here dealt with by removing all personal attacks. Uncle G 15:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Jerskine 13:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I don't think annonomous users (I.E IP) should nominate articles for deletion. Should they?--Edtropolis 13:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
    • There's no policy that discourages this, for all I know. --B. Wolterding 14:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think there's a technical problem here - the comments appear in the wrong article's AfD, could some administrator correct that? --B. Wolterding 14:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Resolved by now. --B. Wolterding 16:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm on the fence about this fellow, but there's other articles in the 9/11 victims category that probably need to be looked at. FrozenPurpleCube 15:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. For me, this is precisely the case described in WP:BLP1E. Sad as this man's fate has been, he is notable only for one event (namely the 9/11 attacks). Thus Wikipedia should cover the event (which it does), but not the person. --B. Wolterding 16:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete-While it seems callous to say this, his only `claim to fame' is the fact that he died in a famous event. So have many others, and it doesn't make them notable either.--Rossheth | Talk to me 16:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep seems to pass WP:N with notable people Hillary Clinton making him newsworthy. Carlossuarez46 21:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • With respect, Merge and Redirect to Sally Regenhard. These can be tough calls. But their articles should be merged and this is not a comment on him or his accomplishments. Canuckle 23:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Even though I have had my differences with XLR8TION, who is the author of this article, I believe that Christian Regenhard is in fact notable for the above reasons elaborated by the author. If Todd Beamer deserves an article on wikipedia, then so does Mr. Regenhard. In a contentious exchange on the Co-op City talk page, I challenged XLR8TION to create articles with references and sources about Christian and Sally Regenhard. He created articles for these two individuals, and I feel both of them are notable. Citizen Dick 00:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Citizen, that was a very honorable thing to say about Christian. I want to point out that I wrote an article on Waleska Martinez, who was aboard United 93. Ms. Martinez had notoriety in the fact about the brave actions of pasengers and crew prevented that flight from crashing into the Capitol. Furthermore, she has been portrayed in motion pictures. There are many notable victims of paramilitary groups such as Al-Qaeda on this site whose deaths were notable such as Leon Klinghoffer, Mark Bingham, Daniel Pearl, etc.. Third, in you look into history, some will want to inquire why Christian has a building named in his honor (see John Jay College blurb) and others will want to what effect his death had on this world. As mother who became the accidential activist just like Cindy Sheehan became when her son died. Pain is one thing, but Christian stands out among other firefighter not in a selfish manner, but because simply his family did not want his death to go in vain. When Hatshepshut was overthrown, there was a movement to destroy any lingering effect of her reign, thuse wiping her out of history. If it wasn't for some brave souls in Egypt she would not even have any notoriety as being the only female pharoah of Egypt. Yet, a select few decided to write about her and inform future generations that she did exist. Ms. Regenhard is a brave soul who has gone to Capitol Hill, CNN Studios, met with beauracrats, technocrats, etc.. to make a difference. Christian made a difference on 9/11 and his unfortunate death launched something. Maybe its me only, but I feel that some on this site, especially those who edit using an anonymous ISP address simply have a vendetta against this individual. Why not instead of attacking and denigrating him, doesn't some one write more and make his bio stub more detailed. It not only takes time, but takes passion to illustrate and educate and if he is notable for Hillary Clinton (possibly the next president of the USA) to dedicate a wing of a college in his honor, why not for others. Open your minds and use it for a greater purpose in life. A purpose to bring the dead back to life in the minds and memories of children and students who will inherit our world and will have to find ways to resolve the numerous problems that plague it. I write because I care. I only write articles for notable individuals that I feel mean something in this world and to me as a person and as a citizen. What makes someone notable on this site? That can vary from person, but actions speak louder than words and there is a cause and effect to everything in this world. Hence, his death caused a new front in the war against terrorism to be born as it will help prevent furture tragedies like those on 9/11. I can provide a list of murder victims on this site who probably many of you never heard of , yet they have articles that no one else has contested. If you look at it, Christian's death was a homicide by a paramilitary group. Just like Marianne Pearl's drive to honor her late husband Daniel, Christian's family works to do the same. Daniel has an article. His death is notable. Christian's name was mentioned in the 9/11 Comission. Capitol Hill has heard his name and so have many in NYC and the world.--XLR8TION 02:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep BLP is obviously irrelevant. Those disliking news coverage in WP have been saying that there needs to be, first, national attention, and second, continuing attention. OK:Newspapers from SF to Florida, over a span of 3 years. Meets the requirements here, interpreted at their strictest (though I disagree that either is necessary--I personally continue to accept regional coverage -- not just local coverage, and as for continuing, longer than the initial coverage right after the event). DGG 01:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    • BLP is not "obviously irrelevant" here; while C.R. is obviously no longer living, the arguments given in WP:BLP1E are routinely applied to the deceased as well, by the same reasoning. To quote: If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. (No reference included here as to whether this coverage spreads over a longer time.) We have precisely that case here. --B. Wolterding 16:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
that general guideline , certainly, applies to everyone living or dead; but the specific concerns in BLP about the wishes of the subject, about greater than normal sourcing for any possible negative material, and so forth apply to the living only.DGG 00:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Notability guidelines don't cover how widespread notablity needs to be, either geographically or how generally notable a person is. We have entries for people who are quite notable within the realm of, say, particle physics, that aren't notable to the rest of us. This man appears to be notable as a firefighter and notable as a New Yorker, and saying that he needs to be notable nationwide appears to me to be making up new rules, unless I missed a guidelne somewhere. Capmango 15:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep, as per all the other Keeps above. Tony the Marine 19:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Borderline Keep. Sally Regenhard is definitely notable, but the call on this article is tougher. But the same can be said for many of the articles in Category:Victims of the September 11, 2001 attacks. I for one would not want to start a purge of these. Wasted Time R 19:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment-Can anyone here point to something that he was notable for prior to 9/11? Because if no-one can, then WP:BLP1E is clearly applicable. And since it's about notability, the fact that he is dead doesn't make this policy inapplicable.--Rossheth | Talk to me 19:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: Citizen, thank you bringing up the names of those firefighters as well. Juarbe had extra notoriety for his winning of a reality show and Keith A. Glascoe, another NY firefighter had a notable role in a modern day film classic ("The Professional" aka "Leon""; directed by Luc Besson). He too perished in the aftermath of the WTC. While both Juarbe and Glascoe had notable exposure in Hollywood, their deaths while unfortunate did not launch a movement like Regenhard did. We will be seeing Ms. Regenhard more on television as Rudy Giuliani becomes the frontrunner for the Republican nomination for president, Christian's name will eventually be heard more in the media. The article can be lengthen by anyone and it eventually will, but to delete him just because his life was not notable to some will only lead to a domino effect of nominations for deletion of other 9/11 victims. --XLR8TION 00:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge→Sally Regenhard. The notability of Christian Regenhard is directly related to and dependent upon the notability of Sally Regenhard as inspiration for the work that has led to her notability; being one of the many 9/11 victims does not alone establish the notability of this or any other person. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.