Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christ!

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. --Lord Deskana Dark Lord of YOUR OPINIONS 09:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christ!

  ATTENTION!

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non-notability, POV Interlingua talk 04:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Band seems to have gone out of its way to make sure we can't verify its notability; oh well. Melchoir 04:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Where's the proof that "War To The Rhythm of W.H. Auden" is so popular [1]? --AbsolutDan (talk) 04:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Well I subscribe to the punk and indie mp3 newgroups and their album is requested periodically. I won't say I have seen it a lot, but I have seen it requested maybe four times in the past year, which is more than quite a few other request numbers - their song War To The Rhythm of W.H.Auden is the only one I have ever seen requested as a single song, so there may be SOME truth to the claim of popularity, I don't knowloveandearth
Comment I had already tagged two albums from this group with "speedy delete" but then was unsure if I should do that with the band itself, or whether I should tag it for an AfD discussion. The albums were Will We Always Be Blind Idiots? and...hmm, I can't find the 2nd album. Neither album gave any indication of "importance or significane", which seemed to merit a Speedy Delete. The article for the band, however, comes closer to asserting such importance, so I hestitated about how to tag it. It's an assertion that I don't happen to believe is consistent with WP:BAND. If anyone in the comments could give me guidance about what I've done right/wrong, I would appreciate that.Interlingua talk 04:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the band article did claim notability it's best to take the safe route and list for AfD. The albums themselves claimed no notability, so they were game for speedy. In other words, you done right. --AbsolutDan (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment Thanks. That's what I guessed based on prior discussions here, but I wasn't sure. Interlingua talk 14:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
This person's comment can't be possible - the Chicago band Christ! has only ever had one album, a live album that came out some months ago (can't be sure - maybe January or February). They have been playing for years but I think seemed adverse to releasing material until someone recorded a live concert for them [User: Loveandearth This person's comment can't be possible - the Chicago band Christ! has only ever had one album, a live album that came out some months ago (can't be sure - maybe January or February). They have been playing for years but I think seemed adverse to releasing material until someone recorded a live concert for them.
Well I agree with the earlier opinion. From a musical standpoint, Christ! is probably not a groundbreaking band, though as it turns up for almost every political demonstration in Chicago and hands out cool flyers with socialist messages written like poems it has certainly been a felt presence in Chicago culture. I think Christ! is better known for its unusual way of distributing music by handing out its CDs to people for free on the streets. Who in Chicago hasn't seen them handing out CDs in Wicker Park or at music festivals or outside the Chicago Metro when fans are lining up to see a punk band especially? So this band should not be listed if musical merit is a consideration, but for its influence alone upon the Chicago music scene it should surely merit some listing, no? Not sure I know the Wikipedia procedures enough on that matter to make a further opinion loveandearth
Well I don't think a cursory viewing of their myspace is a good way to judge their popularity as it appears to be a brand-new site. So far they seem to have two very well-known musicians as friends, though, Crass and Patrik Fitzgerald! So they certainly seem to be starting on a good footing! The prior statement that their own website doesn't mention the song does not appear true. When I last visited the site their entire album was available for free, which is their policy. They are an official non-profit organization in Illinois, I believe, or used to be, though I did not verify that recently (but I did half a year ago when I first heard their CD). User:loveandearth
    • Comment I tried a cursory view of the Wikipedia article first, and learned there that one of their songs had been a notably popular download. I went in search of hard evidence, since the article offered none. All I found was myspace. When I last visited the band website, this morning, I had to click through page after page of cartoon nonsense and found no songs before becoming too irritated to proceed. WP:MUSIC is still the problem here, there's so little evidence to go on. Perhaps a verifiable article that described the Southside scene as a whole, of which this band were a part, would be a better start? --DaveG12345 16:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

How come these voters can't find the songs, when they are clearly freely available on the site at http://www.christtheband.com/solo.htm (then click Back To Christ! button - this seems quickest way that avoids their admittedly long cartoon). Their songs are all listed on that album page. This album has been freely available for half a year and is still there. loveandearth —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.20.2.85 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as per WP:Music. Surprised that this isn't a {{db-band}} candidate.  (aeropagitica)  (talk)  08:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment After reading the website (which may be one of the worst websites I have ever seen) and seeing nothing that accurately asserts the band's notability, I have changed my vote to speedy delete. I think it is a {{db-band}} candidate. --Coredesat 09:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Now tagged as {{db-band}}.  (aeropagitica)  (talk)  11:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I removed the speedy deletion tag. It has an assertion of notability, even if a false one. We cannot speedy delete hoaxes, nor can we speedy things for not meeting WP:BAND; we can only speedy articles on individuals or grouops with "no assertion of notability." See WP:CSD. -- SCZenz 11:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment Thanks. That's what I guessed based on prior discussions here, but I wasn't sure. Interlingua talk 14:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment, well, my vote looks somewhat weird now, but I went ahead and changed my vote back to delete, if this can't be speedied. --Coredesat 11:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, per above; non-notable and unverifiable. -- SCZenz 11:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete -- per SCZenz above -- MrDolomite 14:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I'll stay out of this debate. But I was sure happy to see Christ! mentioned in this encyclopedia when I visited it this morning and was sad to see it was going to be deleted! This band is so mysterious and tries so hard to maintain secrecy, that seeing it listed was a nice surprise. They turn up at political demonstrations wearing colorful and weird clothes and passing out hopeful messages to the public, as they do with their music. I think they do deserve at least a mention, especially as the CD is such a good one. It is probably one of the best punk CDs I have ever heard, easily as good as Crass or the Buzzcocks or the Clash. So visionary and catchy. It certainly deserves at least a mention in my view. But I'll leave the vote to the rest of you, as I simply wanted to leave my opinion. I am not an official voter, not sure how this wikipedia thing works... good luck!! User:loveandearth

Just found this article on Christ! that said it might be deleted. That would be a shame, in light of the contributions Christ! has made to punk music on the southside of Chicago (e.g., the birth of Discorporate Records, other free releases by bands such as Tras De Nada, and their inspiring politics). dannybyrd

  • Comment As I noted above, a verifiable article on all of that, including Christ! as appropriate, sounds like the way to go to me, though it would need a carefully chosen "umbrella" title. --DaveG12345 16:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I am following this debate, but it seems sad that Christ! can't have its own entry, given its musically brilliant CD. I am wondering if the name is turning people off, given voters' possible religious orientations. I think this entry is getting short shrift (e.g., one voter claming he can't find the music when it is patently there on their website, or one person describing their opening cartoon on their website as "drivel" - his bias clearly, nothing to do with the merits of whether or not Christ! should have an entry in the encyclopedia!). This band is admittedly a band that only locals in Chicago or those downloading their anti-Iraq War song (or listening to it at anti-war demos) know about, but given the significant artistic merits of their album Will We Always Be Blind Idiots? why does that matter? They obviously exist, they obviously produce excellent music, so why shouldn't those listening to the songs online and wondering about them not have the opportunity to find out a little more about them and their tradition and politics in the encyclopedia? I have seen far lesser bands on Wikipedia (though I won't argue they shouldn't be there - if the entires inform the public about their music, that seems to me one valid purpose of a modern online encyclopedia). I vote APPROVE!!dannybyrd —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.20.2.85 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment I went in search of verifiable evidence to back up the article's unreferenced claims. I found nothing on the song mentioned. The website was, in my opinion, very very poor. I found no songs. The article therefore, for me, failed WP:V, and WP:MUSIC too. The only thing that caused my Delete vote was lack of any verifiable evidence. I do not have all day to look for evidence of one band's claimed notability I'm afraid. I certainly don't get rattled by a band's name.
  • And there is no reason Christ! could not rise again. But it would have to be with verifiable content. Then no one will have to dredge the net for reasons to keep the article. It will all be there, right on the page. I even suggested a starting-point - build something on the scene as a whole, and spin off individual band articles as they grow and gain their own identity. That's generally how things work round here, from what I've observed. I hope you choose to work on it, and I wish you good luck. --DaveG12345 18:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete per nom. Even their supporter(s) in this discussion have made no claim for _notability_ outside the Chicago area. Tevildo 18:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Supporters, please read WP:MUSIC to learn what is considered a notable band here. TomTheHand 20:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick note on finding no songs. Yes there is a long cartoon but after that, songs. To bypass the cartoon, just go to

http://www.christtheband.com/solo.htm

and then click Back to Christ! on the bottom left. I suppose the band is not deemed notable, as you stated. Besides the local papers, some punk websites and punk station DJs reviewing the album very favorably, I cannot think of anything else that would make the band notable in light of their refusal to be signed or sold. Anyway, interesting following this discussion. I like the band but am not a follower, exactly. If I ever see them in the neighborhood, I'll let them know what transpired these last few days on this site! loveandearth —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.249.202.72 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.