Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cherokee Moons Ceremonies

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was KEEP. Paul August ☎ 03:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cherokee Moons Ceremonies

Probably a hoax. Google turns up two hits, both WP, 0 hits for "Cherokee Moon Ceremonies," and 72 for "Cherokee Moon Ceremony," only 7 of which are considered original enough to be displayed. There may be a moon ceremony, but I doubt this is it. --Blackcap | talk 04:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep Article was nominated in bad faith. Is not even completed yet. Unsigned post by Gadugi.
    • No, I'm afraid it wasn't. You weren't able to see my reasoning, because you posted before I had finished typing. --Blackcap | talk 04:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete unless sources are cited before the end of this AfD. --fvw* 04:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Keep now that sources have been provided. --fvw* 14:11, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per above, unless sources are provided. There are moon ceremonies, but I could not find a reference to turtles being 'extremely sacred'. Groeck 04:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Sources Provided as Requested. Gadugi 17:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Keep, sources provided. Groeck 15:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: try Cherokee "Moon Ceremony", I don't know if the results are relevant, but there are a lot more of them. -- Kjkolb 05:02, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I actually tried "Cherokee moon OR moons ceremony OR ceremonies" and other combinations on Google, and checked several web pages. There are several moon ceremonies at different times of the year, but I found no reference to the importance of 13, nor of its relationship to turtles, nor of turtles being sacred (note that the latter claim has been removed from the article). This is why references were asked for (which would not necessarily have to be web references). Groeck 05:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Reference Added as requested. Gadugi 17:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Google is not the central repository of all human knowledge and wisdom. When was the last time YOU READ AN ACTUAL BOOK or WENT TO AN ACTUAL LIBRARY. UNBELIEVABLE. Look what TUK-KAT found. Gadugi 05:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • WP:NPA. Calm down. There's a good reason the Google test exists, see here for some more information about it. --Blackcap | talk 08:04, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • It's too bad you actually never ran a google test before voting. 31,000 hits I think would pass? Gadugi 17:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I note the following Ceremonies played an important part in the life of the tribe. The Cherokee celebrated a series of seasonal ceremonies and festivities that corresponded to the food cycle of the tribe. March was the first of thirteen moons and the feast of the deer. April’s celebration focused on strawberries, and the next harvests were “little” corn, watermelon, peaches, mulberries, and then “great” corn. In the eighth moon, our October, the festival featured turkey, followed by ceremonies for bison, bear, ducks, chestnuts, and finally nuts that were used in bread. Most of the seasonal ceremonies declined in importance in the eighteenth century, except the one held in late summer that coincided with the ripening of the late crop of corn. The Green Corn Ceremony lasted several days and had significant cultural and social connotation., which may be about the same thing, from Chattoogariver.org. A search for "Cherokee seasonal ceremony" turns up 31000 hits, including [lewisandclark.outreach.psu.edu/Mankiller.pdf this] pdf from PSU. Tuf-Kat 05:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - yeah it might be easy to simply delete this article, but this article is but 2 hours old right now and while there isn't much context, I highly doubt that it is all made up. Sure there aren't alot of sources, however, google is not the end all and be all of human knowledge. I think this page has a place here on WP, and I think it was nominated just a little too quickly. Malo 06:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • I strongly object to the claim that this was nominated too quickly. The majority of deleted articles are speedied or AfDd within a minute of their creation. This is extremely important, as if bad, unverified, information remains on the 'pedia for some duration of time it only serves to lower the general accurateness of WP. There is no time limit for articles. --Blackcap | talk 07:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
    • The majority of deleted articles are speedied or AfDd within a minute of their creation. Yeah, obvious crap like "Johnny Teabag is the greatest guy in the world LOL!!!" or "Bumfuck Nowhere is an up and coming high-school band in Ottumwa, Iowa". This is nowhere near that level. --Calton | Talk 16:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
      • My point was that just because I nominated the article soon after it was created doesn't make it an invalid or even a bad nomination. There isn't any duration of time that an article has to exist before being eligible for AfD, and keeping this article for such a reason is incorrect. --Blackcap | talk 23:17, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete unless verifying sources are added before this AFD is done.Keep (but cleanup) now that sources are provided. Gadugi is certainly right in saying you can't expect to find information on everything in Google, but he hasn't done anything to show us where we can find information about this and verify it. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 06:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC) (vote changed 10:17, 24 September 2005 (UTC))
    • Sources provided as requested. Gadugi 17:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Comment -- look at the link Kjkolb posted. It is a refined google search that should provide some other sources to backup Gadugi's article. I don't expect you to find many written sources, just because of how large a part oral history plays in this culture. Malo 06:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

My credentials can be found on talk:cherokee. Gadugi 06:56, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Keep Give Gadugi some time to edit. No reason to assume that it is suspect. Sources can be provided in time. Important to include the culture of native North Americans in Wikipedia. At the moment hugely underrepresented. - Unsigned post by 222.95.1.224.

Oh, and agree with Malo about the speed at which this was put up for deletion. Vizjim 08:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep at least for now, and let's see how it evolves. Dlyons493 12:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep for now and see how it evolves. Blackcap and Gadugi can play out their personal pschodramas elsewhere, though. --Calton | Talk 16:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep article was nominated less that 20 minutes after it was first created.--Kewp 03:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Cherokee-cruft. It's perfectly acceptable to nominate an article for the subject choice alone, so please stop basing your votes by how you perceive the AfD-process. / Peter Isotalo 22:17, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep this article is fine by me. Alf melmac 08:26, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, maybe it needs cleanup and a new title, but the topic seems reasonable ··gracefool |☺ 15:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Gadugi's attacks

I would like to draw attention to some of Gadugi's edits of this AfD, which are now buried in the edit history ([1], [2], [3], [4]). I think they certainly qualify as personal attacks, especially the bits about me being an Irish steel worker (never been near a steel foundry in my life), and the bit about me being blocked for disruption. Considering that these posts were made here in response to my listing this article for AfD, I figured it was appropriate to mention this. I've left a message on his talk page here. --Blackcap | talk 08:25, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh my god, I just saw an ILM forming. You posted comments I was a hoax and marked a perfectly valid article for Afd in bad faith. You also bragged on your talk page about being an Irish (Steel) "Blue Collar" worker. Dont post content on Wiki if you dont want it copied and edited. I removed those comments I made because they were inappropriate. I see conduct like this on SCOX all the time but now I see it here. ILM Alert. Gadugi 08:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I never said on my talk page that I was a steel worker. In fact, I've never said that anywhere. --Blackcap | talk 08:36, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
O.K. I've had some sleep, and now can respond fully. First: I have never said that you are a hoax anywhere. If I may draw your attention to the top of this page, I say, "Probably a hoax." This was a guess based on the content of the article, how unverified it is, and the fact that it is appartently not notable enough to exist anywhere in the internet except for Wikipedia, and the internet is a big place. Second: You apparently do not understand WP policies, as evidenced by the edits mentioned above and your immediate assumption that this article was nominated in bad faith. Third: You continue to say that I violated some AfD regulation and that your article is "valid" (and is therefore, I can only presume, immune from AfD), but if you see WP:AfD you'll find that I haven't violated anything and that policy is on my side, at least in terms of nominating the article. I suggest that you relax, re-read this AfD, and read WP:NPA, WP:V, WP:AfD, and WP:DP and see that I haven't done anything wrong here. If, after doing that, you still feel that I have, then at least cite some WP policy that puts me in the wrong. --Blackcap | talk 16:38, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

You called this article a Hoax and me. You probably should actually read the articles before voting Afd. You keep quoting Wiki policy, yet Google shows 31,000 hits on this topic, then you quote NPA policies, while it was you who attacked by posting an Afd to the article accusing the author of being a hoax and a fraud without ever having read it or inquiring. Why don't you just admit, "I was lazy and was attacking Jeff because I do not like him based on the stuff I saw on the internet, and I pounced the moment I saw him post this article and I was in the wrong, AfD withdrawn." Instead you keep justifying your actions when everything you claimed, all of your reasoning, your research (or lack thereof) all indicate you did not even attempt to verify information before voting, and you were in the wrong from the start. Gadugi 17:02, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention his suggestion that Fvw had been reverting his edits [5], something which the page history shows to be false. - Unsigned post by 82.15.19.128.

Also calling me "SCOX ILM Member" in the previous edit. I'm sure calling someone a member of a lynch mob counts as a personal attack.

Flame bait comment posted above. Also, this person is stalking as they have apparently read Internet Shell Shock. 67.137.28.187 17:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • ... or written it.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.