Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Henry King

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Notability is not inherited (or the other way round) but this now appears to have enough to fulfil WP:BIO. BLACKKITE 19:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Henry King

Charles Henry King (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete and merge with Gerald Ford - not independently notable per WP:BIO. Strothra (talk) 06:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - What's the harm - he was a president's grandfather & has been dead for 80 years. Afraid his enemies'll get you from the grave - or are you afraid this entry will waste valuable space on the tiny little itsy bitsy wee baby server wikipedia is run off of? 76.184.82.86 (talk) 07:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)— 76.184.82.86 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete Weak Keep. Not notable, and not to be confused with other Charles Henry Kings, such as the founder of King City, California, who may be sufficiently notable.--Michig (talk) 09:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC) I would only support keeping this if he can be shown to be notable in his own right, and the info from User:Americasroof should provide this when added to the article.--Michig (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC) Notability is clearer now.--Michig (talk) 08:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - may fail biographical guidelines. There is one source, which isn't even cited for the main purpose of the article, the fact that Charles is his "paternal father". Rt. 12:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge relevant info with Gerald Ford and Delete. Only notable for being Ford's grandfather, but some of this information could flesh out a longer introduction to Ford's family history. Joshdboz (talk) 12:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and delete with Gerald Ford, per Joshdboz. STORMTRACKER 94 13:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge, per Joshdboz (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 14:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC).
• Keep - Ford was born in his home and Charles Henry King paid child support (in place of his Ford's biological father) for Ford until 1929. There was a lawsuit in which Ford's mother attempted to get a piece of his estate following his death. King might even be independently notable because of his banking and financial status in Nebraska. I found out all this after getting the book "Fathers of American Presidents" following the recent unsuccessful effort to delete Ford's biological father. I now know where to find the additional info on him (in Cannon's book on Ford's early years biography) and Ford's own autobiography. Unfortunately, I probably can't get it within the time of one of these afd debates. Americasroof (talk) 16:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Cameron's book is actually on print google. It notes that he founded a stage coach line between Omaha and Wyoming and that he was active in the expansion of the Burlington Railroad into Nebraska and that he had a net worth of $10 million in 1900 - making him one of the richest people in Nebraska. All of those items would qualify him for notability beyond "just" the Ford connection. Americasroof (talk) 17:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

And for good measure there's a whole bunch of good stuff on print.google including more details about the Kings and a story about how Ford's maternal grandparents had to flee Illinois themselves because of the disgrace of having a single-mother daughter (and Ford had yet a third name). But the articles on the maternal grandparents have already been deleted based on nominations by this nominator. When it comes to the ancestors of heads of states you really do have to use common sense. Ancestors of presidents will always have extensive articles written on them everywhere but apparently not on Wikipedia. Americasroof (talk) 18:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

A building he built in Wyoming is on the National Register of Historic Places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Americasroof (talk • contribs) 18:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

And for good measure according to rootsweb he is either a founder or early settler Riverton, Wyoming, Fort Fetterman, Douglas, Wyoming, Glenrock, Wyoming, Casper, Wyoming and Shoshoni, Wyoming. You're going to have to give me some time to get this article in shape. His name is all over the place in Wyoming history pages. Americasroof (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Article Significantly Updated - I have significantly updated the article per the above. I still want to do some more clean up but I hope I have established notability beyond Ford. Founding of several cities including Wyoming's second largest city should automatically make him notable. Americasroof (talk) 05:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Fails WP:BIO. Presidential notability does not travel backward through time to make all the president's ancestors notable as well. Edison (talk) 03:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Since WP:BIO is used as a justication. Here's the nutshell quote from the Page:

This page in a nutshell: A person is presumed to be notable enough for a standalone article if he or she has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Notability criteria also must be met for a person to be included in a list or general article; in this case, however, the criteria are less stringent.

There are numerous extensive articles and books devoted to the man as a pioneer of Nebraska and Wyoming and founder of Casper, Wyoming so at that simple guideline he meets the Wikipedia standard of notability even if Ford was never even discussed. Comments on him should be directed to the whole revised article rather than trying to pick at an individual argument that was made before the extent of his influence on Nebraska and Wyoming was stated. Americasroof (talk) 03:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Delete He is not cited as a founder of Casper, Wyoming - nor is he prominently mentioned in the formation of any of the other cities you mention. In 1888, he opened a store in Casper, much like he did for many of the Wyoming towns along the Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley Railroad. So it all boils down to Charles Henry King being a savvy merchant, but being a clever at business doesn't make one notable in and of itself, nor does being a settler. The problem is that history mostly fails to record him except for his famous grandson, and that makes it difficult to keep this. Any other name and he would be just another merchant that struck while the iron was hot during the western expansion of the late 19th century. As the article stands, the sources and citations just aren't enough to establish notability outside of Gerald Ford. The promised sources that discuss King's prominence in Nebraska and his wealth may tilt the balance, though. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 05:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Credible Third Party Articles About Notability Beyond Ford - THe Casper Journal itself attributes a founding role to him in a lengthy article The Casper Journal article also notes that his bank was a predecssor of First Interstate Bank in Wyoming/Montana (and that one of his buildings is the site of the legendary Yellowstone Drug which is on the National Register of Historic Places.

James Cameron has extensive background in his biography

A Mary Wignent biography also deals extensively with his background

WP:BIO says you only need one published source to establish notability. I've just given you three major sources. His biography would have probably gone forever without any challenges on just his pioneering role in Wyoming but he is being penalized for his Gerald Ford connections. Americasroof (talk) 06:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Had he not been Gerald Ford's grandfather, its likely he would have never made it this far on Wikipedia, if he was chronicled at all. The Casper Journal article merely states that he had a store in Casper, but that was nothing new or interesting; merchants had been trading near Fort Caspar since it was founded in 1859. Casper isn't named after King nor did he hold any official offices, indeed the only time anybody sees fit to mention him in the same breath as Casper is to highlight Gerald Ford's connection to Wyoming. I'm not going to pass judgment on any of the other parts of his life - it seems that he may have some notability from his later days, and I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with the direct relatives of a president to be included in these pages, certainly we have no problem documenting royal families down to silly levels. But the guideline is clear - Charles Henry King needs to establish notability on his own beyond that of his famous grandson, and if it comes down to deciding if he was a notable pioneer of Wyoming, then I would have to say that he wasn't. Standing on his own this article would have probably been a snowball consensus to delete if it didn't get redirected and merged away first. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 02:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The article quoted by Zagaleo below is headlined A Wyoming Legend: Ford Family Includes Pioneer - Fresno Bee - December 1, 1974 focuses on Charles Henry King and even includes a photo of him. It likewise attributes founding of towns to him.

In addition to having a role in Casper he is also considered a major player in the establishment of communities in Fremont County, Wyoming including Riverton, Wyoming (one of his buildings in Fremont County is on the National Register of Historic Places. You can debate what "founding" means but establishing one of the first businesses in a community is certainly up there.

And of course there's the whole bank thing. The system of banks he founded were the forerunners of First Interstate Bancorp which is one of the biggest (perhaps the biggest) bank systems in Wyoming/Montana.

The sources also note that there's a substantial article on him:

A recent story in the "The Wind River Mountaineer," a quarterly history journal published by the Fremont County Museum Board, focused on the important role Charles Henry King played in the development of the city of Casper and with the opening of large parts of Fremont County for settlement at the beginning of the 20th century.

Quite I frankly I probably earlier would have offered only token opposition to the deletionist bandwagon on him. But in the debate (last week) to delete Ford's father, a book "Fathers of American Presidents" was quoted and I got a copy of it (yet another credible third party source!!!). The chapter on Leslie Lynch King listed Charles' accomplishments including the amazing tale that he had paid Ford's child support clear up to nearly his death and that there was a battle over his estate between King's son and Ford's mother.

WP:BIO has a very simple criteria for establishing notability -- credible third party articles. There are numerous books, newspaper articles and scholarly publications on King. There's sure a lot of people outside of Wikipedia who seem to think he's notable. Americasroof (talk) 04:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep sources exist, notability established. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I think there's enough information available for an independent article. Charles Henry Ford seems to have been the primary subject of a 1974 article in the Fresno Bee Republic. (The Google News archive preview reads, "Charles Henry King, a pioneer businessman, was a legend in early Wyoming.") And from what I can glean, there's some additional info on him in the Summer 1987 issue of Nebraska History. (I found a newspaper article on Factiva {Fred Thomas. "Details in Nebraska History Magazine: Ford Knew Little of His Omaha Roots, Real Father". Omaha World-Herald. 20 July 1987.} that devotes a section to Charles Henry King and uses the journal article as a source.) Zagalejo^^^ 07:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Addendum I was able to access the article from the Fresno Bee Republic. The second paragraph reads, "Ford's elevation to the Presidency has been the talk of many of the Wyoming old-timers in Casper, Shoshoni, and Riverton. They still remember his father and his grandfather, possibly the wealthiest man in the state in his day." I'd say the bolded portion is a good claim to notability. Zagalejo^^^ 06:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep first, there are enough sources. Second, tho not all a presidents relatives are notable, I would extend it to his grandparents. Seems reasonable. People are interested in these things, they are verifiable. DGG (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.