Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chantal Claret

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was withdrawn. Deli nk (talk) 15:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chantal Claret

Chantal Claret (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Withdrawn the afd in favour of a rfc on the unsourced info. --Neon white (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Not notable according to WP:MUSIC and suffers from one editor inflating the article with original research. Neon white (talk) 21:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

KEEP'', Chantal Claret has also co-hosted an MTV2 Dew Circuit Showcase without the band http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mtv2-dew-circuit-showcase/1570914601 and had a monthly advice column in Alternative Press, which I believe merits it's own page. Here is a link to the Playboy, NY TIMES, and even a blender article where she is by herself without the band http://www.blender.com/guide/articles.aspx?id=1862 which "no one" could convientiantly find. http://morningwoodrocks.com/images/press/mwplayboy.JPG ,http://morningwoodrocks.com/images/press/mwnytfeat.jpg which is right on the morningwoodrocks.com press page. This is getting ridiculous and NEONWHITE is being totally hypocrytical, when some of his own pages have no references. Give it up and leave it alone.(talk) 18:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, there is no ownership of articles on wikipedia, i do not own any articles, articles were she speaks primarily about the band don't make her notable as an individual, that has been said many times. There is a lack of non-trivial second party sources which are required if you read WP:BIO. This is why the article remians largely unsourced OR. None of these fit that criteria. --Neon white (talk) 19:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, there's plenty of mentions of her out there, that can be added. Redrocketboy 23:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I can't find any reliable sources about her seperate from the band. Most of the sources are about the band and therefore more appropriate for that page and there is a lack of second or third party sources. --Neon white (talk) 23:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, Maybe neon should read the "Criteria for Musicians and Ensembles page again and learn how to do research on the Net. I'll follow right down the list. 1.) Ms Claret has been the subject of newspaper and magazine interviews from the NY Times on down to Maxim and Playboy Magazine. These are not reviews or group interviews, they are solo interviews with Ms. Claret. 2.) Morningwood has had a #30 chart hit with Nth Degree in 2006. 4.) Morningwood had a national tour in 2006 that included appearances in the US, England, Spain, Italy, Germany, Japan and other countries. 6.) The group includes Pedro Yanowitz who played drums for the Wallflowers and other groups. 10.) Morningwood has appeared on the Tonight Show, and The David Letterman Show twice among other TV appearances, including hour long performance and interview shows in Spain. 11.)Both Jetsetter and th Degree have been on national rotation lists. This action is merely an amping up of a bullying edit war. He repeatedly deletes the unimportant majority of the article claiming it not to be verified, while he leaves in significant information that has no verification at all. It is just a little power trip. 68.54.15.213 (talk) 23:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Neither playboy, ny times or maxim's website nor google can find any mention of any article in either newspaper or magazine and none of these are used on the page or have been provide depsite requests. Any interviews or articles available relate specifically to the band and she is not the subject of the article as specified in the criteria. Morningwood's notability has absolutely no relevance to this discussion this is about her article not the band's article which is seperate. The article is largely based on original research and current has no sources for notability that is why it is here, no other reason. --Neon white (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Lead in a notable band, plenty of major interviews. OhNoitsJamie Talk 01:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Interviews can't really be used as a source for notability. It's an exception to point 1 on WP:MUSIC other publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves and on WP:BIO it specifies secondary source material which is reliable--Neon white (talk) 02:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentPoint 1 of WP:MUSIC does not disqualify those sources. Media reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves, and advertising for the musician/ensemble. The aforementioned sources are not press releases or adverts, which is what point 1 is concerned with. Blender article (a little on the trivial side),NY times article (which is certainly beyond "trivial") Billboard article. OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly what point 1 excepts, trivia, press releases and promotional interviews. The billboard article is about the band which has been pointed isnt relevant to her notability. The other two are very trivial. --Neon white (talk) 03:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It took seconds to find 75 references to Chantal and the NY Times, including an interview - here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/fashion/sundaystyles/08nite.html and I could drag in references for everything else mentioned above by anonymous, since he/she seems to have read them or about them on the Morningwood message boards. I don't post any so called original research on the Chantal Claret article, I merely try to restore what vandals remove or screw up. Could you tell me why you don't just put back the banner I put up explaining that the article had no references and doesn't meet Wikipedia standards, blah, blah, blah? I inserted it on the weekend and somebody else deleted it. It seems to me that using that disclaimer would solve your particular problems. Or is it that you don't want this issue 'solved'? DrDelos (talk) 01:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Let me add this to the notability list above by anonymous: Wikipedai says a person is considered notable if: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a musician or ensemble that qualifies above". Chantal has co-composer credits with the US Copyright office for Nth Degree which, in addition to being a hit for Morningwood, was used in several TV commercials including a series for Mercury automobiles. That alone makes her notable according to Wikipedia's own criteria. DrDelos (talk) 01:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment NY Times article is trivial at best and as the policy says 'non-trivial published works' and it's arguable whether she is the subject of the article and there is very little contained it the article that could practically be used in the article to determine notability. The guidelines mentioned above are for 'composers and lyricists' not for 'musicians and ensembles'. You have restored alot of OR on the article (anything that isn't based on a citation is OR, such as uncited personal interests), but the issue here is whether there is enough notability. I think what you are refering to is a 'refimprove' tag. These in no way allow an article to use unsourced material, they are used to alert editors that the article needs improving which has been done in removing the OR. As i said above the song is notable to Morningwood not to her and is not relevant to her individual notability. If she is only notable as a member of Morningwood and the article is of no great length then the usual practice is to merge them. --Neon white (talk) 02:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Comment' The NYT link was to demonstrate that you are either not capable or not willing to research for yourself the references that back up everything mentioned above. It demonstrated that. It I provided the references for the other statements above, I'm certain you could and would find fault with all of them. I wonder if you look at any articles other than the ones you are fighting with people over. There are hundreds of thousands of pages with millions of unsubstantiated, unverified and unverifiable, off the cuff paragraphs and they stay online unchallenged for years. BTW, Chantal has writing credits for a lot more published music and lyrics than just Nth Degree. She has her own rock group entirely apart from Morningwood with no members of Morningwood participating. She also appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show and had 8 minute or so segment of her talking to the camera by herself. The video is online. And to repeat, all I did to the article is remove your vandalism. I did not post OR and you would know that if you would do the research on the history of the article. DrDelos (talk) 03:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Comment' This page is for discussion about the notability of this article only no other article is relevant, it is not for personal attacks or points scoring. I was aware of the article but considered it trivial and not really about her as the major subject. So far this is the only source for notability provided if you can provide others then do so. It is the job of the editor who includes the material to provide a citation and no-one elses this is specified in policy. Removing unsourced material does not constitute as vandalism , this is a personal attack which you have been warned about several times. --Neon white (talk) 03:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete - I too was unable to find any reliable sources; this artist gets a lot of ghits, but all of it is either in the context of Morningwood (which is notable) or highly trivial or self-promotional in nature (interviews, fan-pages, short blurbs from NN music webpages). Her one apparent claim to having her own page is her partial songwriting credit on the one song mentioned above. As I see it, by the spirit of the policy, that's just not enough. A separate page would, by necessity, either be a stub containing her one point of notability, or a collection of WP:OR and impossible to reference fancruft. Bullzeye (Ring for Service) 05:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I have actually questioned that criteria on WP:MUSIC for clarification as to what it actually means, it can't possibly refer to anyone who has a writing credit for a notable band as that would potentially include some people of very little note. My suggestion is to merge with morningwood as i don't believe there will be that much sourced info available to make anything other than a stub after all the unsourced stuff is removed. --Neon white (talk) 20:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Comment' Song writing credits from MP3 version of the CD 'Morningwood' include: - Televisor, Jetsetter, Take Off Your Clothes, Body 21, Easy, Babysitter, Everybody Rules and Ride the Lights. These credits as co-composer are encoded into the commercially distributed, downloadable MP3 files. That is a difficult reference to use, because although it is hard proof, it is also hard to put into a searchable form for anyone wanting to 'see it for themselves'. Performance credits for Ror-Shak's first album 'Deep' mention Chantal Claret as vocalist on 'A Forest' listed on the CD cover and encoded into downloads. I will try to get you some more references, hopefully more conventional if possible. I am just super busy at the moment. DrDelos (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Comment' AMG AllMusic.com has composer credits listed on most of their discographies. Here is the link to Morningwood's entry: http://wm01.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:a9fixqlaldfe~T3 It skips several songs that Chantal wrote and co-wrote, but the six it lists crediting her all got national air play in 2005 and 2006. DrDelos (talk) 21:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.