Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casey Jones in popular culture

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 19:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casey Jones in popular culture

Casey Jones in popular culture (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Very trivial. A note of mentions isn't that notable. This seems to be another case of "it got to be too big for the regular article, so let's move it here so we can just clutter and list as much as we can". Frankly, I'm starting to think a policy on Wikipedia needs to be in place, so these articles stop popping up all the time. Category:In popular culture shows how bad this has gotten. 13 subcats, 129 pages in the category itself. While I'm sure some are decent and well written (not just a crufty list of trivia), I would imagine the majority is horrible. RobJ1981 20:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - loosely associated collection of items. "Spot the reference" pop culture articles tell us nothing about the subject of the reference, the fiction from which the reference is drawn or the real world. I strongly agree with the notion of developing policy or explicitly stating somewhere in WP:NOT that these sort of trivia-traps need to go. Otto4711 20:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - as per above. I also agree that a new policy needs to be in place for WP:CRUFT. These things have no place in an encyclopedia. -- Hot Dog Wolf Bark! 20:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Very crufty. Also per nom. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 21:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete there are no WP:RSes that Casey Jones in popular culture is notable. Carlossuarez46 21:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, and these things have to go. Also what has to go is the idea that "popular culture" means "random trivial mentions in TV shows and movies popular with 14-25 year old American males". Andy Warhol is pop culture; a random mention on Family Guy is just a random mention on Family Guy. --Charlene 21:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Same argument as mentionned in the Saskatchewan in popular culture afd.--JForget 22:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. If it were not for the references to Casey Jones in song and story, he would only have been another train engineer who died in an accident. Song and story ("popular culture") is what has made the person notable. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Move to a subpage of Talk:Casey Jones. Casey Jones is a figure of folklore, and it is characteristic of folklore that it is reproduced with variations. The information collected here should be preserved for the use of future editors. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep or Merge to Casey Jones. Google books and Google scholar show folklore journal articles anout the place of Casey Jones in popular culture published back in the 1940's, and there are dozens of scholarly sources which can be used to write an excellent article. Casey Jones is one more non-notable railroad fatality except for his place in popular culture. In the early 20th century railroad workers died at an appalling rate. In the Chicago switchyards alone, there were several deaths a month. Casey Jones was not a notable railroader before his death. After his death, a popular ballad was written and was recorder by many country western and folk musicians. A TV series was made about him. A Disney feature cartoon was made about him. A separate, but similar blues tune called "J.C. Holmes" was recorded by Bessie Smith which retels his story. A different tune about him was recorded by the Grateful Dead. An obscene ballad starting "Casey Jones was a son of a bitch, drove his train into a forty foot ditch" was featured as a marching chant in the movie "An officer and a gentleman" and is on a CD of "Rude Rugby Songs". Casey Jones is extremely notable, with hundreds of published articles, and he is notable solely because of his place in popular culture. Deleting this material outright would leave a brief bio article about him, which does not in any way show why he is notable. Per Smerdis, at least move this to the Casey Jones. There is nothing "loosely associated" or indiscriminate or unreferenced about 100 years of popular ballads, TV shows, US postage stamps, songs, cartoons and movies about the tragic end of John Luther "Casey" Jones. Edison 19:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge relevant information to Casey Jones --omtay38 19:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Casey Jones has been a notable figure in American folklore for 107 years. In April 1932, "Erie Railroad Magazine, vol 28, no. 2, p12 said the Casey Jones song was known in translations into French, German, and the language of South African railway workers. It noted several "wierd and often unprintable variations (as mentioned above) composed by doughboys in France in during the world war (WW1)". This was reprinted in "A treasury of American Folklore," by B. A. Botkin, (American Legacy Press, NT, 1944) pp 241-246) with other material about the Jones legend. In pp 178-180 Botkin groups Jones with John Henry (folklore), Paul Bunyan, and Pecos Bill as "American legendary heroes" who were "occupational heroes". John Henry dies in a spike driving contest with a steam hammer, "Casey Jones in a train wreck with one hand on the whistle cord and the other on the airbrake lever." This legendary status is certainly " in popular culture" as opposed to being part of a human being's historic biography. He was a railroad worker, but in popular culture after his death he became much more. The TV show by itself is notable, the song(s) are notable (by virtue of numerous scholarly articles) and do not deserve either deletion or burial in "to a subpage of Talk:Casey Jones" as Smerdis suggested. It is better to concentrate the several notable songs and TV/cartoon depictions in one article. If there is a strong feeling against articles containing the forbidden words "in popular culture" then the best way to do this would be by a merge to the article about his biography. Example of how to do this are Johnny Appleseed , Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett , earlier actual persons who became legends, and none of whom appear to have separate "popular culture" articles. Edison 01:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• No, don't merge it was split out of Casey Jones because the list was too long for the subject, a biography. I have no strong opinion on whether this article stays or goes, but I definitely do not want it put back into the biography. However, this should be kept following the comments in Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles to avoid the information going back into the biography, getting split out again and getting nominated here again to repeat the cycle. Slambo (Speak) 13:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
• Condense and merge per Edison's suggestion above. The main article mentions Casey is the subject of popular ballad but then contains no information about the ballad itself. — WiseKwai 14:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, but... I agree that trimming some of the more obscure, less relevant references is probably a good idea. For example, I can see several entries on the "In Music" part that could probably go without detracting from the overall relevance of the article. The postage stamp reference should be in the main article and the Railroad Tycoon II reference could go. Other than that, the rest of the information is relevant and should stay because it shows that he has remained a notable and memorable figure in the public mind, even 100+ years after his death.--Gabeb83 08:10, 19 July 2007 (PST)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.