Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caroline Mulroney (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caroline Mulroney

Caroline Mulroney (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Not notable. Children of Canadian politicians are not notable in their own right. DDD DDD 11:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The only assertion of notability of this person is being satirized once, sixteens years ago. --Targeman 12:27, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Does not assert notability guidelines. Moreover a google search shows up only a few links for this subject. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 12:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Notability is not inherited, and has done nothing notable herself. I don't believe A7 applies as I believe the statement of her being the PM's daughter is their attempt and establishing notability. --sumnjim ^{talk with me·changes} 16:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Unlike her brother, Caroline is not notable, as noted above. At best some can be added to Brian Mulroney. -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 16:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete As I stated in the previous AfD nomination: Being the the daughter of a fairly famous man, marrying the son of a fairly famous man, and having a third fairly famous man sing at the wedding does not a notable person make. Victoriagirl 16:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Merge to Bryan Mulroney as she is not as notable as Ben.--JForget 00:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsure what there is to merge here. The Brian page lists his children's names. Shouldn't that suffice? Now, not that I am supporting a merger, but if it were merged, could you JForget suggest something for the Brian page?DDD DDD 02:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The 1991 Controversy surrounding Frank Magazine and which Bryan denounced it could be an element it can be merge there.--JForget 19:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Do I get to vote? Or is my vote already included when I nominated the article? V'Girl, a year ago, captured the essence of this: any claim of notability is related to the people in her life: daughter of..., brother of..., wife of... For good measure, Strong Delete. DDD DDD 02:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Your delete recommendation is indeed implicit in your nomination unless you state otherwise. Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 03:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep (switch to delete; see below) as per Uucp's arguments in the previous AfD. Although we might not like it that having a famous father and attending high society events etc makes one the subject of non-trivial coverage in multiple sources, it does happen and it was so with Ms. Mulroney. Much of the news coverage is not now accessible via Google; however, she was frequently in the news a few years ago, and has strong name recognition in Canada, which is not the case with her siblings other than Ben, and not the case with some other more recent Prime Minister's children. --Paul Erik 03:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Yes there was press coverage of her wedding (or at least it was noted in the press). However, she is a private person and I'd argue that Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons requires us to avoid tabloid-style journalism, which this is. If the tabloid content is removed, then the article might not even be a stub. The article does not currently have any properly sourced statements, which is required for a BLP. If the article it kept, it needs sourcing quickly. Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 04:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment While I can't agree with the claim that Caroline Mulroney has strong name recognition in Canada, I acknowledge that, as the daughter of a former Prime Minister, she receives occasional mention in social notes. But this was my point when responding to Uucp's arguments. Caroline Mulroney's name is nearly always followed by "daughter of former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney" (or a similar description) - just one sign that she has no name recognition. More to the point, I have been unable to find any indication that she "has been the subject of published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject", as callled for in WP:BIO. And I point out that the guideline adds: " If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may need to be cited to establish notability. Trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." I would argue that coverage of Caroline Mulroney has been trivial, at best. Victoriagirl 15:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Your points are well taken, and I agree that BLP calls for better sourcing than what the article now has. But as for tabloid journalism, my recollection is that much of her media coverage was not of the tabloid nature but rather along the lines of a profile of someone who is in the public eye (e.g., as with the current cover story in MacLean's [1] about Laureen Harper). If we had web access to all the media coverage around the time, I think a much better article could be written about Caroline Mulroney quite easily. Now, since I have already ventured into the dubious realm of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I'll bring up the other point from the previous AfD, which is that much of the arguments about notability made here would also apply to the Chelsea Clinton article. Anyway, I would still argue to keep the article, remove controversial unsourced statements, reduce to a stub if need be, but allow it to remain for others to build upon it. --Paul Erik 23:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment As it was never part of my argument, I won't address the issue of tabloid journalism. My point is that Carolyn Mulroney fails WP:BIO. Chelsea Clinton "has been the subject of published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject", one recent example being this piece in the July 30 edition of The New York Times. I have not yet found a single piece which might be similarly described dealing with Carolyn Mulroney. Recognizing that web access to the media coverage from the time her father was Prime Minister is something less that thorough, I've checked the Canadian Index. Nothing. Victoriagirl 01:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• Changed to delete. Good idea, checking the Canadian Index; it is of course better to rely on that than on my memory of the media coverage from that time period! Thanks for that. --Paul Erik 01:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. I'm not afraid to repeat myself from last time: Relationship to notable person not inherently notable. "First Lady", "daughter", "son", "uncle", "pet", etc., is not a Canadianism. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not the society page. Agent 86 19:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Agent 86. GreenJoe 19:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Victoriagirl--Kelapstick 19:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Merge 1991 Frank incident to Brian Mulroney's Second-term section. Then Delete Caroline and Redirect to her father's article. Does not have notability as a Celebrity independent of her family. Canuckle 20:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Granted, I do see CBC describing her nuptials as "wedding of the year" [2] with "more than 400 guests including former U.S. president George Bush and wife Barbara, Queen Noor of Jordan and former TV talk-show host Kathie Lee Gifford" [3] and it helped break the career of Michael Buble...But those can be adequately covered in her father's and Buble's articles. Canuckle 20:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - Notability is not inherited...That last AFD should've been closed as a delete Corpx 03:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, per Paul Erik. Mathmo ^Talk 01:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment I understand you want to keep articles from being deleted. Your user page is devoted to the deleting/saving of wiki articles. However, I think your "per Paul" defence is a bit weak. The article is about a non-notable person. It's written like tabloid journalism. It's one thing to have (m)any article(s) on wikipedia. It's another to have articles of quality. This article has got to go.DDD DDD 11:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete notability cannot be inherited. JPG-GR 03:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.