Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carmelo Bertolami

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. The assertion that the gentleman's article lacks reliable sources is unrebutted. The supporters of retention here make weak arguments aimed at the Italian government, and do not speak to Wikipedia guidelines or policy. Policy, thus, demands deletion of this article on the basis of strength of argument. Xoloz (talk) 15:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carmelo Bertolami

Carmelo Bertolami (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Stub article on an Italian man who is claimed to have lived to the age of 107, and whose claim to notability is that he was one of the last surviving Italian veterans of World War I. However, that claim is not recognised by the Italian government because he served in the army for less than six months before being captured (which, to be honest, seems rather mean of them, but apparently that's their criteria).
There has been a low-level edit war over reports of his death, with unsourced claims of his death in November being repeatedly added and removed; they appear to originate from material circulated by an Italian on the Worlds Oldest People mailing list run by indef-blocked User:Ryoung122 (see discussion on my talk page), and now referenced to a French site on military veterans which does not look like a reliable source, and which I guess may have used the same informant as the mailing list (see also discussion at Talk:Carmelo Bertolami).
Apart from the unreliability of the death reports, the only other reference is a 400-word note about his 105th birthday on the website of his local commune (roughly equivalent to a parish in England). This seems to me to fall well short of WP:BIO's requirement for substantial coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject: it a bit short to qualify as substantial, it's arguably a primary source, its independence is questionable, and there is no evidence that Bertolami's death even got a mention in a local newspaper.
Since there is nothing to say about this man other than "107-year-old-army-verteran", it seems to me to be quite sufficient that his name be recorded in the relevant lists (Veterans of the First World War who died in 2007 and Deaths in November 2007), and I have referenced his entry in both of those articles.
So I suggest deletion, possibly followed by a redirect to Veterans of the First World War who died in 2007. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete The claim of reaching 107 does not appear to satisfy WP:V and in general the requirements of WP:BIO and WP:N do not appear to be satisfied. Edison (talk) 16:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Wish I knew what rank he was for living veterans. I guess for World War I veterans, we would have a standard equal for all countries, so I'll ignore Italy's 6-month policy unless all the other countries are like that. Neal (talk) 17:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC).
  • Regretful delete I've been trying to make Good Articles out of all the last remaining World War I veterans, but my searches indicate that there just aren't the sources to support an article for this individual. It's not a language thing either - I found plenty of sources, English and Italian, for Carlo Orelli. Nothing, aside from what the nominator has already pointed out, can be found for Bertolami. Would gladly change my !vote if sufficient sources could be found. Cheers, CP 17:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. As per user "NealIRC". Extremely sexy (talk) 22:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply Bart - The Italian 6-month policy is not the issue for this AfD. This is not about his inclusion in Veterans of the First World War who died in 2007. Even if he was confirmed as the last surviving WWI veteran from any country, it doesn't alter the fact that he lacks the substantial coverage required by WP:BIO! Neal (talk) 00:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC).
  • Delete per nomination. --RandomOrca2 (talk) 01:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.