Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Ramah

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. --Ezeu 02:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Camp Ramah

Its a summer camp organisation. It organises summer camps. There is no claim to notability except by proxy to one of its sponsors, and after that is removed, we are left is "We are summer camps. We do summer camp things". Unless the article can explain, through the use of verifiable information taken from reliable third-party sources, how this summer camp organisation (or its component summer camps) is significantly different from the standard, run of the mill summer camp organisation (or summer camp), there is nothing we can do that the camp's own site cannot do better. -- saberwyn 10:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• If kept, should be moved to a name implying that this is a collective organisation running several camps, not just a single camp as the current title implies. -- saberwyn 10:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Conceeded. -- saberwyn 02:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Umm ... if "Camp Ramah" is the name of the organization, then that's the name, whether it seems misleading or not. I do believe the article's a mess -- for one thing, how about some actual locations? RGTraynor 15:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
• Then where does the "National Ramah Commission" come into it? -- saberwyn 22:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  • That's the governing body, but if people are looking for an article about these camps, they are much more likely to look under Camp Ramah than National Ramah Commission. Under Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) it would seem that Camp Ramah is the more appropriate name, and even if someone moved the article to another name it would still be necessary to leave a redirect at Camp Ramah. So I would leave the article where it is. --Metropolitan90 02:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per nom. Vizjim 13:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep and expand The article isn't particularly great as it currently stands, but Camp Ramah is a very important organization. I'm not very Jewish, but where I'm from (New Jersey), literally every single conservative Jew I knew went to Camp Ramah. Has anyone bothered to check the SIXTY THOUSAND Google hits [1]? The camps have existed for a very long time, and are spread through North America. In my opinion, they're quite notable. -- Kicking222 14:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

674 unique Google hits, pretty notable. Will change my vote if someone updates the article. Vizjim 14:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep A google search gives many valid hits implying its notability, although the article does require more references. --Srikeit^{(talk ¦ ✉)} 14:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 21:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. An organization that oversees summer camps- that's exactly the type of article we need here. Reminds me of the articles we have on school accreditation agencies. -- JJay 20:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep per JJay and Kicking222, but not withdrawing nomination. -- saberwyn 23:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep and expand. Ramah camps are one of the best-known, most influential, and best-documented educational programs associated with Conservative Judaism. A large number of academic books and papers document the Ramah educational vision, and its influence on North American Jewry. You could make a pretty strong argument for the case that Ramah, as an institution, has had more influence than many of the Conservative rabbis listed in Wikipedia. That said, the existing article makes it sound as though Ramah is nothing more than an administrative office in New York, overseeing activities at a dozen or so camps around the world, and that these camps are places where kids have a lot of fun. The article would benefit greatly from describing the history of Ramah camps, the role of Hebrew and Zionism in camp life, the influence that camp had on the evolution of egalitarianism within Conservative Judaism, the very large number of Conservative Movement leaders who have been campers and staff members at Ramah, and educational theories and practices that were devised as a part of camp, among other things. The article needs to be expanded quite a bit -- but the skeletal quality of the existing article shouldn't fool you into thinking that Ramah is unimportant or undeserving of a Wikipedia article. Reuvenmlerner 21:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
• Very weak keep - notability is established in the first part (unlike the other summer camp articles in the AfD listings), but the article is in dire need of rewriting to get into encyclopedic form. More description and less listing are needed. B.Wind 13:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.