Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Camp Massad (Montreal)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus, which defaults to keep. There are many fallacious arguments on both the keep and delete side. Taking everything into account, including the fact that the article has no reliable sources, there is still no consensus to outright delete the article. There seems to be a consensus amongst those that are opining for keeping and deleting this article that the article needs some cleanup to read less like a "camp brochure" and more like an encyclopedic, neutral, historic entry. The lead needs to be fixed to remove peacock and spammy language. Several "travel guide" like sections need to be altogether removed. And of course, sources need to be found and cited, as there appear to be some available in google books, as cited here. Tagging the article for cleanup, post deletion discussion. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Camp Massad (Montreal)

Camp Massad (Montreal) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

This page was speedied, and then the editor reposted it with a note on the talk page: "would really like to keep this page. Although it is not the most notable and important camp, it is of great historical meaning to it's members. This page is a source as to what occurs at this camp.Without this, Camp Massad has no database. Please do not delete it." 2 hits on Google News that are about different camps with the same name. A Wikipedia search shows three camps with this name listed, Camp Massad (Manitoba), and Camp Massad (Poconos). It appears that the Poconos location was quite notable...perhaps merge all three into a single Camp Massad article? LegoTech·(t)·(c) 03:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Any organization is going to be of great historical meaning to its members — but that's not what defines whether it belongs in an encyclopedia or not. It only belongs in an encyclopedia if it's of historical meaning to people who weren't members of it, actually. A merge would be potentially acceptable, if these three camps were actually affiliated with each other — but if they're completely independent organizations that merely happened to have the same name, then a merged article wouldn't really be appropriate and this one should then be deleted if real sources can't be found. Bearcat (talk) 04:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I can't find any sources besides it own. And creating a database on Wikipedia is not what Wikipedia is for, anyway. Noble Story (talk) 07:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. -- BelovedFreak 10:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —Shuki (talk) 20:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Why does not WP have a specific guideline to rate notability of summer camps? I think it's about time that happened. A summer camp serving a few hundred people over the year is not the same as a nameless seasonal ice cream store, or is it. There should be some consistancy to putting summer camps up for AFD. Massad is definitely above the average of the others in the cat. I would suggest removing all the meaningless activities and keep it to historical facts. --Shuki (talk) 20:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - non-notable. There are lots of places to host a page about your old summer camp; but Wikipedia is not one of them. If there are other articles about similar camps, then put them up for deletion as well. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument for retention, but an acknowledgment that a lot of things have snuck in here that really don't qualify for their own articles. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, unless Wikipedia plans on deleting every last article listed in Category:Jewish summer camps because they are very notable to Jewish life and living in North America. Refer this article for improvement and discussion at WP:JUDAISM (and wait for Passover to end!) Jewish Summer Camps are attended by almost all Jewish youth in North America and are a central feature of Jewish educational, religious and communal life in North America during the months of July and August every year. Rather than picking at this or that camp, and coming up with weak rationales to delete of "WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" -- which is NOT an official WP policy only "advice" -- and any attempt to deal with this issue should be to reach out or create a working group of editors, some with Judaic expertise, to determine the importance of these key Jewish educational institutions. Otherwise it is like cutting off a limb because one does not see how it fits with the rest of the body, a very counter-productive move. IZAK (talk) 12:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep- It is important to have entries on summer camps and such. There are so many articles like this one ( Category:Jewish summer camps ), why should this one be deleted. It is a reference of a camp, and is very important to Jewish people in this part of the world. It is very notable as a buisiness of its kind, and deserves to stay. Googoogoo123
  • Delete - not notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wageslave (talk • contribs) [1]
  • Keep- It is as notable as most other articles on Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markovsiu (talk • contribs) [2]
  • Keep - but edit - Jewish camping is an important part of American Jewish history. Limiting to only an arbitrary definition of "notable" distorts the picture and is less than encyclopedic. However, an encyclopedia entry should focus more on the history of the camp over the decades, the reason for its founding, etc., and less on its contemporary structure and shtick, which leads the article to read like a brochure. There should also be an article on the now-defunct Camp Massad of Ontario. Note multiple print references to the Massad camps on ["Google Books"] In particular, this Hebrew-language monograph [3] on the Massad camps should serve as a good basis for an excellent encyclopedia article.Yudel (talk) 14:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
      • comment - Could you possibly put the link again for the Hebrew-language monograph thing again? The link given didn't work. Thank you! --Markovsiu —Preceding comment was added at 02:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong delete csd/a7 no claim to notability, utter lack of wp:rs: [4]

. ¨16:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep - great article, professionally sourced, camps are just as notable as other subjects if the media feels important to document it, thanks--YY (talk) 16:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
    • comment - It's an advertisement, not an article. If this camp is notable, how come there are a grand total of zero, count 'em, bupkes, ef-es, no reliable sources about this so-notable camp in the article? --Orange Mike | Talk 16:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
      • comment - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Notability is easily proven via Google Books.Yudel (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • 'Delete. Isn't notable per se. Would have liked to merge it to a larger parent organization, but the header is a bit confusing and its unclear if there is such an organization that is notable with a Wikipedia article.Woops, just noticed the aforementoined Google Books link. I'm now unsure. --brewcrewer

(yada, yada) 08:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep per IZAK. M0RD00R (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I can see the reasons for the keep, but can we at least have it edited to read less like a brochure for the camp and more like an encyclopedia article? LegoTech·(t)·(c) 17:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. A precedent has been set through the majority of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish summer camps and local organizations decisions. Change the header though, it does read like an ad. 24.78.101.176 (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Not notable, no WP:RS. Bstone (talk) 04:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Currently no RS. If it's notable, a periodical or book will have mentioned it. Happy to change to Keep if RS are added. --Dweller (talk) 09:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
    • comment RS exist as per Google books. See my keep vote above. Yudel (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, camps are somewhat in the same category as schools (they are in effect most often "summer schools"). Without a clear guideline existing specifically for camp inclusion, we can reasonably apply a similar standard that we do to schools, requiring only verifiability per Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_paper_encyclopedia. --MPerel 16:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.