Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bulgarian conjugation

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Ryanjunk 14:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian conjugation

Bulgarian conjugation (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This is a gargantuan (190 kb) set of tables for conjugating verbs in Bulgarian. We have many excellent articles on languages here, and they all contain similar tables. But those articles provide a mix of different things - historical analysis, phonology, grammar, etc. The problem here, is that it is almost all tables. Something like this is better suited for Wikibooks, or Wikiversity. I just do not see how this is appropriate for an encyclopedia. And it doesn't help that most of it is in Cyrillic, as the average English speaking Joe or Jane will just see a mass of gibberish.

Someone has put a ton of work into it, so I don't want to see it deleted altogether, but it really needs to be completely migrated off. If anyone sees anything else at all like this in other languages, feel free to apend this AfD. Ultimately, though, Delete, for the record. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 13:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Also, some similar candidates for a Wikibooks migration are Bulgarian pronouns, Bulgarian adjectives, and Bulgarian nouns. These three are nowhere nearly as bad as above, but they would make a excellent counterparts for any Wikibook on the Bulgarian language. These three articles contain good info that could be put into an expanded (rather than chopped up) article on Bulgarian grammar, just with less unencyclopedic detail. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 13:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. It may be that Bulgarian requires a much larger article than Latin conjugation or Latin declension, but we also have those articles, which are also heavy on material presented in tables. Neither the relative familiarity of Latin over Bulgarian, or the fact that Bulgarian is written in Cyrillic, are really very convincing arguments to delete this. I cheerfully agree that the article could use more analysis, which might lead to making some of the tables redundant, if they are generated by regular sound changes; but someone who knows more about Bulgarian should make those edits. (My old Americana contains several Latin tables, but no Bulgarian ones, but that's no excuse for us not having this. - Smerdis of Tlön 13:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Smerdis of Tlön. I don't know a great deal about Bulgarian but I do know it has an extremely complex verb system - therefore a long page is inevitable (this is a legitimate case of ignore all rules as far as article length goes). The Cyrillic argument doesn't hold water either (maybe you want a transliterated version alongside the original?). --Folantin 14:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The length of the article is owed to the complexity of the matter. I think a transliteration will only unnecessarily blow up the article. Instead, an introduction in English would probably be helpful. --GFlohr 18:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Conjugation is a complex and lengthy thing in several modern languages. I have two books whose sole purpose is to give tables of conjugations for French verbs. The first has 90 tables. The second has 115. Our French conjugation article is significantly less than comprehensive. Uncle G 19:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. I do not speak Bulgarian but I believe it is of interest to keep this article. The size argument shouldn't be used as a reason for deletion. I have proposed an article split for the same reason, although it has not reach a consensus... Francisco Valverde 14:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
• I don't know what additional analysis the article needs but I accept suggestions. I see that Spanish conjugation and German conjugation have no additional notes (They have fewer tables but what can I say? Bulgarian definitely needs more), French conjugation and Portuguese verb conjugation have very little and Latin conjugations has a lot but it explains when to use the tenses - something I have done in Bulgarian verbs. It is true that some of the tables are nearly identical. If it is better to write that the verb X has almost the same conjugation as the verb Y, but its Z form is different, I'll do it.

Here's how I explained the conjugation in the main article Bulgarian grammar before I decided to make the article similar to the German and Spanish ones:

Present Tense

Verbs form the present tense according to their conjugation. They take the following personal endings:

These endings are placed directly after the form of the verb in third person singular (that is why it has no ending - it just ends in e, и, а or я), except for -а, -я, -ат and -ят. Before these endings are added, the final е/и is removed.

First conjugation verbs which in third person singular end in:

• a vowel + е or in -пе (also including дремя, скубя and their cognates) take the endings -я and -ят (играе - играя/играят, къпя/къпят, скубе - скубя/скубят) - I type;
• a consonant (different from п) + е take the endings -а and -ат (изплете - изплета/изплетат - II type;
• -чѐ (notice that the final syllable is stressed) take the endings -а and -ат and in first person singular and third person plural they change the ч into к — речѐ - река̀/река̀т - III type;

Second conjugation verbs that in third person singular end in:

• -жи, -чи or -ши take the endings -а and -ат (кръжи - кръжа/кръжат, мълчи - мълча/мълчат, греши - греша/грешат) - IV type;
• anything else take the endings -я and -ят (види - видя/видят) - V type

VI type verbs are all the verbs or the third conjugation.

Past Imperfect Tense

In order to conjugate a verb in this tense, one has to know the verb's past imperfect basis, to which the following personal endings are added (they are the same for all conjugations):

The basis is formed from the determiner of the verb's conjugation (its third person singular form in the present simple tense). Here are the rules for forming the basis (there are also a very few irregular verbs):

• Verbs of the first and second conjugation:
  • the stress of the conjugation determiner falls on the last syllable (or the verb is monosyllabic) — these verbs change the final е/и into я (плета̀ - плетѐ - плетя̀+х, твърдя̀ - твръдѝ - твърдя̀+х, спя - спи - спя+х) - I type;
  • the stress of the conjutation determiner falls on the last syllable and the letter preceding the final е/и is ж, ч or ш — the final е/и changes into а (пека̀ - печѐ -печа̀+х, троша̀ - трошѝ - троша̀+х) - II type;
  • the stress of the conjugation determiner doesn't fall on the last syllable - the final e/и changes into e, which means that the basis of some first conjugation verbs coincides with their determiner (игра̀я - игра̀е - игра̀е+х, ва̀рдя - ва̀рди - ва̀рде+х) - III type;
• verbs of the third conjugation - the basis always coincides with the conjugation determiner (казвам - казва - казва+х) - IV type.

Past aorist tense

Similarly, as in past imperfect tense, verbs have past aorist basis to which the following personal endings are added (they are the same for all conjugations):

Rules for forming the basis:

• first conjugation verbs which in third person singular present tense end in:
  • -те, -де, -се or -езе (except отида, ида, везя, бъда and their cognates) — these verbs change the final е into о (плета - плете - плето+х, дада - даде - дадо+х, донеса - донесе - донесо+х, вляза - влезе - влязо+х), except in second and third person singular. These forms preserve the е. Nevertheless they still differ from the present forms in stress position - I type;
  • -рече, -тече or - пече — че changes into ко (река - рече - реко+х, изтека - изтече - изтеко+х, опека - опече - опеко+х), except in second and third person singular. These forms preserve the че, but still differ in stress. - II type;
  • -сече or -лече — ече changes into яко (сека - сече - сяко+х, облека - облече - обляко+х) except in second and third person singular. These forms preserve the ече, but still differ in stress. - III type;
  • a consonant + ре — the final е changes into я (умра - умре - умря+х, спра - спре - спря+х) - IV type;
  • -бе, -ве, -не, -пе, -оре (including веза, гриза and their cognates) — the final е changes into а (скубя - скубе - скуба+х, падна - падне - падна+х, ухапя - ухапе - ухапа+х) - V type;
  • -че (different from II and III type) — че changes into ка (плача - плаче - плака+х, дъвча - дъвче - дъвка+х) - VI type;
  • -еже (including verbs of the second conjugation ending in -ежи) — еже changes into яза (режа - реже - ряза+х, бележа - бележи - беляза+х) - VII type;
  • -ъже, -рже (except вържа and its cognates) and -риже (except харижа and its cognates) — же changes into га (лъжа - лъже - лъга+х, стържа - стърже - стърга+х, стрижа - стриже - стрига+х) - VIII type;
  • -иже (different from VIII type) and -аже (including вържа, харижа and their cognates) — же changes into за (кажа - каже - каза+х, ближа - ближе - близа+х) - IX type;
  • -ше — ше changes into са (пиша - пише - писа+х, бърша - бърше - бърса+х) - X type;
  • -жее, -чее, -шее — ее changes into а (възмъжея - възмъжее - възмъжа+х, закопчея - закопчее - закопча+х, вършея - вършее - върша+х) - XI type;
  • -ее (different from XI type) — ее changes into я (живея - живее - живя+х, пея - пее - пя+х) - XII type;
  • -ае — these verbs are irregular, some of them change the ае into а, others change it into ая (желая - желае - жела+х, омая - омае - омая+х) - XIII type;
  • -ие and -уе — the final е is left out (гния - гние - гни+х, чуя - чуе - чу+х) - XIV type;
  • -ере — ере changes into ра (пера - пере - пра+х, разбере - разбра+х) - XV type;
  • -ме (except дремя and its cognates) — ме is left out (взема - вземе - взе+х, приема - приеме - прие+х) - XVI type;
• second conjugation verbs: the basis of these verbs ends in и, я or a (only verbs that have ж or ч before the final и in third person singular present tense), but most of them are irregular because one can't be absolutely sure which of the three letters to use. Here are the rules:
  • verbs that in third person singualr present tense end in ши — the basis is the same as the form of the verbs in third person singular present tense (their conjugation determiner) (реша - реши - реши+х, довърша - довърши - довърши+х) - XVII type;
  • verbse whose stress doesn't fall on the last syllable (except видя and its cognates) — the basis is the same as the conjugation determiner (рабо̀тя - рабо̀ти - рабòти+х, мѝсля - мѝсли - мѝсли+х) - XVIII type;
  • verbs whose stress falls on the last syllable and:
    • are transitive — the basis coincides with the conjugation determiner but there are many exceptions (изгоря̀ - изгорѝ - изгорѝ+х - "to burn something", вманиача̀ - вманиачѝ - вманиачѝ+х, умножа̀ - умножѝ - умножѝ+х) - XIX type;
    • are intransitive and:
      • don't have ж or ч before the final и in the conjugation determiner — the final и changes into я but there are many exceptions (изгоря̀ -изгорѝ - изгоря̀+х - "to burn", излетя̀ - излетѝ -излетя̀+х, изкипя̀ - изкипѝ - изкипя̀+х) - XX type;
      • have ж or ч before the final и in the conjugation determiner — the final и changes into а but there are also exceptions (мълча̀ - мълчѝ - мълча̀+х, лежа̀ - лежѝ - лежа̀+х) - XXI type;
  • verbs that in third person singular present tense end in ои (except стоя and its cognates) — the basis coincides with the conjugation determiner (напоя - напои - напои+х, броя - брои - брои+х) - XXII type;
• third conjugation verbs — the basis always coincides with the conjugation determiner (ядосам - ядоса - ядоса+х) - XXIII type;

I have deleted most of this because I saw that in the German and Spanish articles there are no such explanations. But I preserved a small part of it in the article Bulgarian verbs.

Note that this does not include some important verb groups and the conjugation of the participles.

I, personally, find the above more confusing than just tables because for example the verb играя in the present tense is of type I, in the Past Imperfect of type III and in the Past Aorist of type XIII. If I had explained the conjugation of the participles, it would have been of some other type. In the tables it is just type 18.1. I wrote the tables using and correcting information (mostly dialectisms and wrong classification) from the Bulgarian wiktionary. Arath 15:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• Also, about the transliteration. The article is for people who are interested in the Bulgarian language, for people who want to learn Bulgarian. When someone starts learning a language the first thing he has to master is the language's alphabet. The article isn't just a bunch of phrases for travellers. Arath 16:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.