Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Buffalo Speedway
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus; default to KEEP. - Philippe 03:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Buffalo Speedway
Looks like just a typical city street in Houston, albeit one with a sort of out-of-the-ordinary name. However, there's nothing on Google to show any sort of history that could lead to notability for this street, and nothing particularly notable about it now. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- Comment: If this ends in favor of delete, could this be a redirect to Houston, Texas? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Don't see why it couldn't be. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- There is now a lot more cited, verifiable information on the page. If this is deleted, the contents need to be preserved somewhere. Note that most of the comments below were made before cites were added. Novasource (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, the two sources added are the same ones as were discussed below. Jakew (talk) 15:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I see that now. I came across them doing a Google search for "buffalo speewday". Novasource (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- More improvements made. Novasource (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I see that now. I came across them doing a Google search for "buffalo speewday". Novasource (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, the two sources added are the same ones as were discussed below. Jakew (talk) 15:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- There is now a lot more cited, verifiable information on the page. If this is deleted, the contents need to be preserved somewhere. Note that most of the comments below were made before cites were added. Novasource (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Don't see why it couldn't be. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment: If this ends in favor of delete, could this be a redirect to Houston, Texas? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. It seems more likely to me, although not certain at all, that the original speedway could be notable. As it is, well, many streets have cute stories about how they were named, and a great many of them are named after things they were adjacent to that no longer exist. --Dhartung | Talk 06:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - this is a major street through 3 cities, West University Place, Bellaire, and Houston. I have seen it. I have not seen this article but the subject is so strong that it deserves an article. WP policy is to judge the notability and not even consider if the article has crappy writing, not that it does or doesn't. JerryVanF (talk) 06:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Just because a street goes through 3 cities doesn't make it notable. Notability can be construed in two ways. 1) "Worthy of note" (aka its claim to fame, or the reason it's important): What makes Buffalo Speedway distinguishable from Reno Avenue in Oklahoma City/Del City/Midwest City, or any of the arterials that run through the dozens of Kansas City suburbs, or the even (geographically) tinier suburbs of St. Louis? Also, TxDOT apparently doesn't concur with your assessment that the street is that major, or they would have recognized it by assigning at least a FM or UR designation to it. Also, while it may be important to the local region, it has little to no importance outside of that region. Main Street in little Washington, Oklahoma is certainly important to that town's residents, but we shouldn't have an article on it. Why? Because it simply doesn't leave an impact on anyone outside of that community. Same for this road: it has little or no impact outside the Houston area, which is evident when we examine...
2) The Wikipedia version of notability: WP:N: coverage in reliable secondary sources. All the hits that I can get off of Google are mere travel directions or addresses. No sources that discuss the road itself. Thus it fails WP:N's threshold of inclusion and should be deleted.—Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 06:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Just because a street goes through 3 cities doesn't make it notable. Notability can be construed in two ways. 1) "Worthy of note" (aka its claim to fame, or the reason it's important): What makes Buffalo Speedway distinguishable from Reno Avenue in Oklahoma City/Del City/Midwest City, or any of the arterials that run through the dozens of Kansas City suburbs, or the even (geographically) tinier suburbs of St. Louis? Also, TxDOT apparently doesn't concur with your assessment that the street is that major, or they would have recognized it by assigning at least a FM or UR designation to it. Also, while it may be important to the local region, it has little to no importance outside of that region. Main Street in little Washington, Oklahoma is certainly important to that town's residents, but we shouldn't have an article on it. Why? Because it simply doesn't leave an impact on anyone outside of that community. Same for this road: it has little or no impact outside the Houston area, which is evident when we examine...
- Keep - Passes WP:N. Two Houston Chronicle articles have in-depth coverage of the history (alleged or real) of this street [1][2] and the latter makes reference to a book called Historic Houston Streets: The Stories Behind the Names which appears to give non-"passing mention" coverage to it as well. --Oakshade (talk) 07:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- So the name has history. That doesn't address the street as it stands now though — what makes this street important enough that we should have an encyclopedia article on it? —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 07:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- The first story says there was no speedway (there goes my suggestion) and that it was named because the street itself was used for informal drag racing. The second says nobody knows for sure. This really doesn't seem to pass WP:V let alone WP:N. --Dhartung | Talk 22:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
- You're speaking of a content issue, not a WP:N one. Even that there's controversy as to why it has its name, it's still the subject of reliable secondary sources. Even hoaxes and other enigmas pass WP:N if they're the subject of secondary sources. --Oakshade (talk) 01:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- Just because it passes WP:N doesn't mean we should have an article on it. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
-
Keep unless you can figure out a good alternate location for the information in the article. Novasource (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)- Strong keep. The article now has citations, and its notability is enhanced by its unique name. Novasource (talk) 14:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. The sources cited might pass the bare minimum test of notability, but ultimately it's a street, and the real question is: what makes this street, of all the millions of streets in the world, sufficiently special that it needs to have an encyclopaedia article about it? The answer, as far as I can tell from reading the article, is nothing. Hence, it isn't notable. Jakew (talk) 21:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- There are sources attesting to the street's notability. Should any street be in Wikipedia? If not, then this should be deleted. How important is this street? In my opinion, it is in the top 2% of streets in Houston as far as notability. So that's why I support a "keep". If you want to restrict it even further and say only the top 5 streets of any big city may be included, that's different.JerryVanF (talk) 02:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why should anyone outside of Houston care about this street? —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- The WP:IDONTCARE and WP:UNKNOWNHERE arguments are not useful criterion in deciding inclusion. --Oakshade (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's where you're wrong. They are. Obviously, we cannot have articles on all city streets in all cities. What makes this one significant enough that anyone outside of Houston would find the need to look up this information? **What makes this street important enough outside Houston to justify this street's inclusion in this encyclopedia? Nobody has happened to answer this question yet, and I suspect because it's impossible to answer. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- see ** above. I do not live in Houston or even Texas. JerryVanF (talk) 04:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- How is that relevant? We still need to show that this street is of more than local importance. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 07:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- see ** above. I do not live in Houston or even Texas. JerryVanF (talk) 04:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'd also like to point out all the keep votes have been variations of WP:LOCALFAME and WP:IKNOWIT. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- You're just giving your subjective opinion on what is of significance to readers. How do you know people outside of Houston have no interests in its streets? I personally read articles of localities and their attributes all the time with great interest. I know for a fact many others do. With entirely subjective criteria like "do people outside of a locality care?" that is impossible to answer, Wikipedia has created specific standards as to what it considers notable. The core standard is a topic being the subject of independent secondary sources. There is absolutely no "Even if something passes notability guidlines, Wikipedia thinks people outside of a certain area won't care" clause anywhere in Wikipedia policies or guidelines. (The WP:LOCALFAME and WP:IKNOWIT arguments you referenced applies to articles that do not pass WP:N unlike this article, ie "John is the tallest person in my home town so should have an article about him.") If you want to change WP:N to include a "People outside a certain area won't care" clause, you need to make you case on the guidelines talk pages, not on specific articles. --Oakshade (talk) 06:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- The sources you are talking about a) don't agree, b) consider their own sources contradictory and dubious, c) discuss nothing about the street but the name. How is that significant coverage? I certainly don't agree that this passes notability standards, thus I think WP:LOCAL is an entirely valid objection. --Dhartung | Talk 06:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Houston Chronicle is a reliable source. I've seen many users try to use the fallacious "Yeah, the New York Times might have written about, but their sources are unreliable" argument when wanting to delete an article, but of course its inherently flawed as Wikipedia:Reliable sources refers to the actual publisher of content, not whatever their sources are. That they reported that the source of the name of this street is in question, makes it still notable by Wikipedia guidelines. Bigfoot is an invention of dubious sources and probably such a creature doesn't exist, but that fact that the media has reported on it makes it notable. --Oakshade (talk) 06:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- In the case of bigfoot, that article cites some 41 sources which do constitute significant coverage, so it's a poor comparison. In the case of this article, that significant coverage simply doesn't exist, as Dhartung notes. I would say that the only way one could argue that these two sources constitute evidence of notability is if one treats WP:N as a minimal checklist to be blindly followed, and that is not the intent of that guideline. Jakew (talk) 13:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- The sources you are talking about a) don't agree, b) consider their own sources contradictory and dubious, c) discuss nothing about the street but the name. How is that significant coverage? I certainly don't agree that this passes notability standards, thus I think WP:LOCAL is an entirely valid objection. --Dhartung | Talk 06:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- You're just giving your subjective opinion on what is of significance to readers. How do you know people outside of Houston have no interests in its streets? I personally read articles of localities and their attributes all the time with great interest. I know for a fact many others do. With entirely subjective criteria like "do people outside of a locality care?" that is impossible to answer, Wikipedia has created specific standards as to what it considers notable. The core standard is a topic being the subject of independent secondary sources. There is absolutely no "Even if something passes notability guidlines, Wikipedia thinks people outside of a certain area won't care" clause anywhere in Wikipedia policies or guidelines. (The WP:LOCALFAME and WP:IKNOWIT arguments you referenced applies to articles that do not pass WP:N unlike this article, ie "John is the tallest person in my home town so should have an article about him.") If you want to change WP:N to include a "People outside a certain area won't care" clause, you need to make you case on the guidelines talk pages, not on specific articles. --Oakshade (talk) 06:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's where you're wrong. They are. Obviously, we cannot have articles on all city streets in all cities. What makes this one significant enough that anyone outside of Houston would find the need to look up this information? **What makes this street important enough outside Houston to justify this street's inclusion in this encyclopedia? Nobody has happened to answer this question yet, and I suspect because it's impossible to answer. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- The WP:IDONTCARE and WP:UNKNOWNHERE arguments are not useful criterion in deciding inclusion. --Oakshade (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why should anyone outside of Houston care about this street? —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- There are sources attesting to the street's notability. Should any street be in Wikipedia? If not, then this should be deleted. How important is this street? In my opinion, it is in the top 2% of streets in Houston as far as notability. So that's why I support a "keep". If you want to restrict it even further and say only the top 5 streets of any big city may be included, that's different.JerryVanF (talk) 02:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp (talk) 15:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. Based on the article as written, it does not establish notability. If someone has sources and the street is truly notable, then they can write a new, properly cited and sourced, article. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Keep due to efforts to improve the article during the discussion. Good job! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 15:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Strong Keep not just for reasons stated previously by others but also because I live on the other side of the country from this thoroughfare and have heard about it, so it's not strictly of local interest only. And for that matter, Wikipedia would be nothing but porn if content was restricted to subjects that only held majority interest. ;-) --BRossow (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
