Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/British New Zealander

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge into New Zealand European --Durin 17:08, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British New Zealander

British New Zealander (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Term unused in New Zealand - Pakeha is used by the majority to refer to someone of British ancestory. Also look at the references or lack of. --HamedogTalk|@ 00:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Merge and redirect. The following two sentences from the article can be merged into Pakeha or European New Zealander. The rest is just introductory and can be deleted:
    • "The term "British New Zealander" is used by some New Zealanders who recognise a distinctly British heritage rather than European, and prefer to define themselves by their own language and culture rather than adopt the Māori term "Pākehā" (which can be seen as a racist and pejorative term). The term is more commonly used among royalists [1] and conservatives." YechielMan 00:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Kripto 01:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletions. -- Canley 01:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect. to European New Zealander for now Brian | (Talk) 01:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • weak merge and redirect Delete - This article is poorly sourced, with only one reference, and that is to a blog. So I would delete as does not meet Wikipedia:Verifiability. However if references are found then merging into European New Zealander would be acceptable. - Shudda talk 01:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I've changed my mind to delete. It's not appropriate to merge this into European New Zealander when what is stated is not verifiable. How do we know it's true? Especially the bit regarding royalists and conservatives. On British New Zealanders talk page, Brian says "In today's world a British New Zealander is most likely someone who has just moved from the UK me thinks." This is completely true, which is why without a ref, this should be deleted (rather then merged). - Shudda talk 03:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
      • How do you know it's true Shudda? I'm 5th, 6th, 7th generation British and I still consider myself "NZ British". It's what I put under "other" in the census form. There is evidence for a least one other formally considering themselves NZ British - Aidan Work, the guy who created this article - and Bill Wilmot's link to Aidan's speech implies he shares the same sentiment. And we're all conservative royalists. So, tell me, are the three of us real people with real ethnicites or not?? Watch my blog (link on user page) for an essay on the topic. - A.J.Chesswas 08:00, 1 February 2007 (NZT)
  • I don't know whether it's true or not, because it's not referenced. Hence my view to delete. If the only basis you have for keeping those comments up (in any article) are those you've stated above then it becomes an issues of original research, which is just as good a reason to delete as verifiability. So sorry, I'm going to stick with delete. - Shudda talk 00:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge and redirect. As per others. Mathmo Talk 05:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

As one who did some work on this article I concede as follows. Regarding "NZ British", there seems to be a lack of source material to reference, which is sad, so I'm willing to see that incoporated into NZ European. I suppose it would be fair to even leave it right out, as there only seem to be just a few bloggers using it in common currency. I certainly count myself as NZ British, and know others I share this in common with, but it looks like I'm going to actually have to do some more research and encourage more publishing in the area myself before I can prove its validity as a 21st Century NZ ethnic group.

  • So I vote for merging with NZ European but would like to see a reference retained in NZ European discussing the fact it is used by the likes of myself, Wilmot & Work (conservatives & royalists).A.J.Chesswas 14:55, 30 January 2007 (NZT)
  • Merge with Pakeha for which this is simply an alternate name. --Dhartung | Talk 04:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • NOTE "NZ British" certainly not equivalent to Pakeha. Apparently Oxford Dictionary has Pakeha = NZ EUROPEAN.A.J.Chesswas 20:29, 30 January 2007 (NZT)
doesn't British (in this context) imply European? You couldn't, (in the context of 19th and early 20th century Britain) be from Britain without being from Europe, but you could be from Europe without being from Britain. In which case, doesn't that mean that British New Zealander does mean Pakeha? Kripto 09:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This would only be true if the two races have been thoroughly assimilated. It would be easy to argue they have been assimilated, but in saying that it would be more linguistically and culturally accurate to say Europeans were assimilated into British culture, and thus the term used should be NZ British, not NZ European. It's a political mess, the etymology of NZ European, but I suppose you are right - NZ British and NZ European are the same thing - Pakeha - but for some reason NZ European has become a preferred term. However I will continue to identify myself as NZ British, as do others, and I think it is quite strange that British ethnic identity has been so sidelined in this country. - A.J.Chesswas 08:00, 31 January 2007 (NZT)

  • Merge into New Zealand European even though the term is somewhat widely used. Arguss 5:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge per above arguments. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge — per norm Rayis 12:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge - I'm not sure this term isn't used by people with a certain political view in NZ, but without a (much) better source for usage, I can't possibly go with a "keep". --Dweller 12:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge into New Zealand European. Terence Ong 12:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge Above arguments seem convincing. Widely used term. --SunStar Nettalk 14:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge unless there is evidence that it is a widely used term. JCO312 15:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to New Zealand European for reasons noted above. ~~Magistrand~~ 20:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to New Zealand European, as per above. --Lholden 00:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge per the above. —Nightstallion (?) 14:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect. to European New Zealander, many people find the term Pakeha offensive as in the past it has been used as a derogatory remark.... Banzai777 01:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge into New Zealand European. Nzgabriel 01:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.