Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brent Morel

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was KEEP. ¿Exir?¡Kamalabadi! 03:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brent Morel

Brent Morel (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Probably fails notability requirements for biographies, and Wikipedia is not a memorial site, as well as this is a previously deleted page, and redirected page was deleted multiple times. While I fully understand the desire for family and friends to see loved ones on Wikipedia, I also realize that the WP:NOT policy must be upheld, and it would appear this fails Biography notability requirements. I am hoping I don't get thrashed for nominating this, but I did a Google and the only news item I could find was this NCTimes memorial. ^Ariel♥Gold 02:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Original deletion was for copyvio of this source, which no longer appears to be the case. Notable with significant news coverage. This should be improved with further sources available from latter link. - Dean Wormer 03:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Alright, well my google search found mostly memorial sites, which, while indicating the person's popularity, didn't confirm notability. However, seeing the other article deleted a number of times, one for the copyvio, but several others as well, I thought that rather than see it tagged with a CSD tag, I would bring it here in good faith. The article currently is using a strange table format, with colored background and broken borders, but if someone would like to take the project up and "adopt" it so to speak, honestly I'd rather see articles like this kept when at all possible. I've noticed other memorial sites deleted in the past, and while I fully understand the reasons, it does make me quite sad. So I'm encouraged to see that this may be kept! Feel free to WP:SNOW this closed if appropriate, I've left a notice as to the original reason for AfD, and an update following your comments on the article's talk page. Thanks! ^Ariel♥Gold 03:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• follow up**

I restored the page, cleaned a few things up, and definitely feel it is newsworthy and certainly reflects Valor, as recognized by the US President, it is sad that all of the 3500+ can not get a small tribute somewhere in Wikipedia A good link to actually see names and casualties is http://icasualties.org/oif/ to realize the sacrifice our young men have made in this effort. Swumpg 05:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt that they deserve recognition, and I'm glad to see that this article may be kept. I helped remove that colored table that was incorrectly placed/formatted, and thanks for fixing the other stuff! ^Ariel♥Gold 05:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope it is resolved and can stay. Don't dis my colored table, took a lot of work to make that (g) I will pass along a bit of advice to anyone looking for the BEST search engine (IMHO) is

Webferret (free) and does a tremendous job of ferreting out info on web pages. http://www.webferret.com/

Swumpg 05:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep as the Navy Cross is an award given out about as rarely as the Medal of Honor, although it is of lower rank. stats (scroll down). MOH recipients don't even have a 100% keep record at AFD, I'm fairly certain. In any case no article should be written as a memorial to a person, it should only recognize their encyclopedic value. Wikipedia is certainly not a place to put "a small tribute" for each of the 4000+ coalition KIAs, only the notable ones. Is the Navy Cross notable enough, is the question. --Dhartung | Talk 05:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep

This is current events, and the Battles for Falluja are an important part of the conflict, for historians and the public. As far as I know, Marine Jason Dunham is the only Medal OF Honor recipient, posthumous. Maybe in a few years after this mess is over, it can be archived, but for now, it should stay as a piece of history and valor for researchers. Swumpg 16:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep Wikipedia does not have purely memorial articles, but the coverage in Slate is substantial, and there are other reliable secondary sources in addition to memorial sites and blogs, as well as a Navy Cross awarded for heroic actions. In other words, the argument for notability is recognition of unusual heroism by secondary sources, not just a memorial to someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The article needs to be imporoved using the coverage in those articles. Edison 22:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Follow up to keep

Thanks for those supporting the Keep. I saw a reference somewhere to an article in Slate. I was tempted to add this link [| Fallen heroes link] but it is pretty personal by friends and military types. But in scrolling down, there is a great entry by M.A.M. that puts a lot in perspective. Comments by those that were there, There was more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but qualities of the man that led from the front. While I would love to fill Wiki with tons of links, references, to Brent Morel, Matt Maupin and 3500 other fallen names, one can only rely on people that are interested to follow the links to get a full picture of a person. Looper5920 worked with me a great deal to get the article away from a memorial to being a statement of fact as a newsworthy event. Looper5920 at that time was pretty far up on the editorial food chain in regard to the Military Project and Marines info. I hope it stays this time. Swumpg 21:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I really do too, Swumpg, and I really think you've all done a great job with it. Yes, I'm the one who put it up here, but I did it on a general Google news search, and not the new archiving search that's available. (And more thanks to Dean for showing that to me!). I said it before, I would like this article to remain, if possible, despite the past deletions. Better it go through AfD than have a CSD tagged onto it. I also freely admit that I was wrong thinking he wasn't "notable", when I said that I meant in the biography sense, but I'm glad to be proved wrong. So thanks to everyone who helped improve it! ^Ariel♥Gold 22:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• • more thoughts

all the comments, eg, add Slate quotes, etc, I was afraid would put it back in the Memorial category and make it more vulnerable to deletion. Simply citing the award commendation and Bio info is unbiased, and factual. I would love to go into the too rare bond between a father and son, Brent's bullheadedness, etc, but many of the links go into that. Brian Chontos, Willie Copeland also received the Navy Cross for their actions around that time, but their Wiki articles were deleted. Since I did not write them, I have no "dog in the fight", but would like to see them restored from archives if possible. As the unpopularity of this war increases, I would hope that the Valor of our troops can be remembered and supported. I guess I need to get off the soapbox. Swumpg 03:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.