Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bragg Elementary School
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge and redirect to ABC Unified School District. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 05:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bragg Elementary School
Article about a school that fails to assert notability. Reads like a vanity article for the school's student leadership team. Contested prod. MER-C 02:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Redirect to ABC Unified School District. It's a non-notable elementary school. TJ Spyke 02:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete I'm an elementary/middle/high school deletionist. Needn't say more.--Húsönd 03:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: This is a description of your personal views and biases, not a justification to delete an article. Alansohn 05:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, of course it's a description of my personal views and biases. But this is one of the many AfD nominations that do not fall into a specific WP deletion policy. Thus, users' personal views and biases do serve as justification as long as a consensus is reached.--Húsönd 16:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Again, I appreciate that you are stating your own personal biases. However, this is not relevant to this or any other article. We all deserve an explanation of why this article should be deleted, which might include reading the article, rather than a blanket statement that you think every article for every single elementary, middle and high school should be deleted, regardless of characteristsics and content. Alansohn 16:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, I do read the articles before taking a position, biased or not! :-) And I disagree that my statement was not explanatory. If I'm a school deletionist, it's obviously because I believe that the overwhelming majority of schools are not notable enough to justify inclusion. Anyway, if you prefer a more robotic justification that does not make assertion to my personal views, I may just add: delete per nom (fails to assert notability).--Húsönd 16:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: You did need say more. "delete per nom (fails to assert notability)" shows that you might have read the article and have issues with whether this specific article belongs on Wikipedia. Your original vote provides no context or justification; as written, you would vote to delete any and every school article, regardless of content or notability. And to pose the question to you, does this mean you object to a merge/redirect, or do you feel that any useful information in this article should be deleted?Alansohn 17:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I do acknowledge that my first statement might have sounded as if I promptly vote delete on sight. I apologize for that. Replying to your question, I would oppose a merger (I believe that there is nothing relevant about this school that would justify saving content), and would stand as neutral to a redirect.--Húsönd 17:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: You did need say more. "delete per nom (fails to assert notability)" shows that you might have read the article and have issues with whether this specific article belongs on Wikipedia. Your original vote provides no context or justification; as written, you would vote to delete any and every school article, regardless of content or notability. And to pose the question to you, does this mean you object to a merge/redirect, or do you feel that any useful information in this article should be deleted?Alansohn 17:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, I do read the articles before taking a position, biased or not! :-) And I disagree that my statement was not explanatory. If I'm a school deletionist, it's obviously because I believe that the overwhelming majority of schools are not notable enough to justify inclusion. Anyway, if you prefer a more robotic justification that does not make assertion to my personal views, I may just add: delete per nom (fails to assert notability).--Húsönd 16:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: This is a description of your personal views and biases, not a justification to delete an article. Alansohn 05:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete, merge at best - generic elementary school. Whether or not there are flower barrels outside the classrooms is... impressively irrelevant. Opabinia regalis 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom's 1st sentence. Pan Dan 03:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge/Redirect to ABC Unified School District. Not a very promising start for an article, but deletion is destruction. Alansohn 05:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Redirect per Alansohn. Catchpole 06:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep for reasons defined at User:Silensor/Schools as well as the proposed version of WP:SCHOOLS. Working on this article as well, feel free to help, there are plenty of sources available. Silensor 08:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment And see response essay at User:JoshuaZ/Schools. JoshuaZ 15:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge with ABC Unified School District. Unlikely to be more than locally notable. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Cedars 11:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete: just another school. Fram 12:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. The only claim remotely pointing to notability are some very minor awards. In general, while I have some minimal understanding for making highschools notable by default (even if I disagree) there is absolutely no basis for that claim for elementary schools and its continued assertion does not somehow make it true. JoshuaZ 15:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Does this mean you object to a merge/redirect, or do you feel that any useful information in this article should be deleted? Alansohn 16:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge per Sjakkalle. — RJH (talk) 19:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge ALKIVAR™
19:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC) - Merge per the above. --Myles Long 20:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep, locally notable is enough. Do not merge, let the article grow on its own. bbx 21:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Should we include locally notable corner stores and retail outlets? Maybe we should have separate articles for each Wal-Mart. JoshuaZ 22:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge merge merge! Preferably, no schools (aside from the absolute most notable) would have their own pages. The rest would be combined into "school district" pages, which I think is definitely the best way to go (especially for elementary schools). -- Kicking222 22:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge to ABC Unified School District. This is an elementary school, and there is nothing in WP:SCHOOLS that would allow this to be kept (it does not meet any of the criteria). The only "growth" this article will ever see is the addition of an infobox - it will never be more than what it is. Wikipedia is not a directory. --Coredesat (talk) 22:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge to ABC Unified. WhisperToMe 23:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep and allow for organic growth, this is an important school. Bahn Mi 00:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Organic growth is nothing but a buzzword and do you care to explain why the school is important? JoshuaZ 17:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Can you explain why you feel that any information about this school is so utterly insignificant that you oppose a merge and insist on delete? Alansohn 17:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Sure- Because there isn't any evidence that there is anything inherently notable about this school and no reason to bother keeping it at all. Merge implies some reason that we want the information here, I have seen no reason to think that (I don't mind mergers in general and won't mind a merger too much in this case but it would make much more sense to just delete it). And I note that the above does not constitute a response to explain Bahn Mi's assertion which is still unanswered. If you could explain how this school is important I'd appreciate it. JoshuaZ 18:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Why attack indviduals for their belief that school articles are worth keeping when they only serve as counterweights to your own deletionist biases? Are you suggesting that you would delete information about this school if it were merged into ABC Unified School District as nonencyclopedic? Alansohn 18:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- You are being ridiculous. First of all, I didn't make this an attack about "individual beliefs" (if anyone you did by responding to my inquiry for logic with an essentially unrelated inquiry. If you had put your inquiry where my deletion comment was that would have made sense, but the placement here seems to be some sort of ad hominem attack, in that the implication seems to be something along the lines of "oh look, he has what might be an extreme view, therefore his request for further information should be ignored" (and before anyone makes noise about it, this is ad hominem in the technical sense, not a personal attack and I'm not claiming otherwise). And no I wouldn't delete such information from the school district article because a small summary of a little info about each school in the district is not intrinsically unreasonable (see my above comment wherein I say that I won't mind a merger too much). I also object to your claims that I have "deletionist biases" - thinking something should be removed when you think it should stay doesn't magically make me habe "deletionist biases" and claiming that is ironic since you are in fact attacking individuals even as you claimed that I was doing so. Finally, none of this is at all relevant to the basic question to which I have not yet recieved an answer- why is this school "important"? JoshuaZ 19:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Schools are "importatnt." They certainly are more important than "corner stores and retail outlets". My community taxes me a few thousand dollars a year to run each and every school in our public school system, presumably because society in general feels that schools, and the education they provide, are notable. I had put my comment asking for more details regarding your position, but it was ignored, hence my confusion at your failure to respond while pumping others for details of their justifications. While it doen't mean that all schools merit a Wikipedia article, schools are inherently important. After all, even deletionists went to school somewhere. And if they didn't, it explains a great deal. Alansohn 20:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment A variety of issues- first I didn't notice your above remark immediately below my initial delete comment (my apologies). Second, as to schools being important- there seem to a number of issues here. One, you may be engaging in the fallacy of confusing a part for the whole, just because a collective is important it does not make every individual in that collective important (to use an analogy, humanity as a whole is important, that doesn't make every human important (or if you have an issue with humans, use roaches ). I'm glad that you agree that "importance" in some sense doesn't mean that each merits an article- but that is then an issue since that is precisely what seems to be what Bahn is trying to argue - that they are somehow important enough to merit articles and no argument for that has been given, as to your gratuitous swipe at "deletionists" (who seem to be some sort of boogeyman more than actual people anyways) possibly not going to school, one has the same problem- in fact, we have all gone to corner stores and retail outlets as well. JoshuaZ 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I also went to my corner grocery store, but I never graduated from there. It wasn't accredited and the daily lunch menu of Doritos and Coke just didn't appeal to me. I feel -- and many others, including Bahn Mi agree with me -- that there is a significant essential claim to notability possessed by any individual school that any individual corner store (or individual human or individual roach) will never have. While I agree that this does not mean that every school merits a Wikipedia article, and I agree that this particular one does not, I am among the majority here that seems to agree that this information for this comparatively less significant school belongs somewhere and should not be deleted. This is why I chose Merge/Redirect and feel reassured by the majority that agrees with this approach. Alansohn 21:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Joking aside, simply asserting that there is an essential claim to notability for schools is a statement which doesn't have any backing and neither Bahn nor others seem to have attempted to back it up other than the argument that everyone has been there. Nor does the above in any way distinguish why corner stores would be different (we have articles on many unacreddited schools and I don't see how accreditation is relevant to notability) or if one wants something other than corner stores, one could make the same argument for hospitals (we are all born there) graveyards (we almost all end up there eventually and then stay there) power plants (we all get electricity from them). Simply saying that one is in the majority does not by itself constitute an argument. JoshuaZ 02:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Society seems to have this thing with education and schools that confers an inherent notability for all schools in general, and each particular one. We are taxed to fund universal public education and required to send our children to school for an education (or to educate them independently). The corner store meets none of those criteria. It's funny that you mention it, but I have created dozens of articles for cemeteries, several articles for hospitals and a power plant or two, and I would argue that hospitals, cemeteries (and even power plants) do have greater inherent notability than your corner store. Again, I do not believe that every school ( or hospital / cemetery / power plant) deserves a Wikipedia article, I do believe that any one of them starts with a leg up on notability than does any individual 7-11. While I acknowledge that being a part of the majority "does not by itself constitute an argument", it is sort of how democracy works and it's pretty much the main factor that the closing administrator will have to base his/her decision on. Alansohn 03:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I'm in almost complete agreement with the above. Part of the issue here is that you are defending a position different from that of Bahn, indeed a far more reasonable position. I would agree that "hospitals, cemeteries (and even power plants) do have greater inherent notability than your corner store" but I think it is important to establish why this should be so and more to the point when this makes an entity inherently notable or whether it is more a reflection of these entities more easily gaining notability. I suspect from Bahn's comments here and elswhere that when he says that "this is an important school" he has some other meaning, that is, that this school is somehow important and to that I have yet to hear any backing. (I don't incidentally think how we are taxed to fund schools makes the schools somehow notable by themselves, again part for the whole problem). JoshuaZ 03:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Society seems to have this thing with education and schools that confers an inherent notability for all schools in general, and each particular one. We are taxed to fund universal public education and required to send our children to school for an education (or to educate them independently). The corner store meets none of those criteria. It's funny that you mention it, but I have created dozens of articles for cemeteries, several articles for hospitals and a power plant or two, and I would argue that hospitals, cemeteries (and even power plants) do have greater inherent notability than your corner store. Again, I do not believe that every school ( or hospital / cemetery / power plant) deserves a Wikipedia article, I do believe that any one of them starts with a leg up on notability than does any individual 7-11. While I acknowledge that being a part of the majority "does not by itself constitute an argument", it is sort of how democracy works and it's pretty much the main factor that the closing administrator will have to base his/her decision on. Alansohn 03:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Joking aside, simply asserting that there is an essential claim to notability for schools is a statement which doesn't have any backing and neither Bahn nor others seem to have attempted to back it up other than the argument that everyone has been there. Nor does the above in any way distinguish why corner stores would be different (we have articles on many unacreddited schools and I don't see how accreditation is relevant to notability) or if one wants something other than corner stores, one could make the same argument for hospitals (we are all born there) graveyards (we almost all end up there eventually and then stay there) power plants (we all get electricity from them). Simply saying that one is in the majority does not by itself constitute an argument. JoshuaZ 02:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I also went to my corner grocery store, but I never graduated from there. It wasn't accredited and the daily lunch menu of Doritos and Coke just didn't appeal to me. I feel -- and many others, including Bahn Mi agree with me -- that there is a significant essential claim to notability possessed by any individual school that any individual corner store (or individual human or individual roach) will never have. While I agree that this does not mean that every school merits a Wikipedia article, and I agree that this particular one does not, I am among the majority here that seems to agree that this information for this comparatively less significant school belongs somewhere and should not be deleted. This is why I chose Merge/Redirect and feel reassured by the majority that agrees with this approach. Alansohn 21:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment A variety of issues- first I didn't notice your above remark immediately below my initial delete comment (my apologies). Second, as to schools being important- there seem to a number of issues here. One, you may be engaging in the fallacy of confusing a part for the whole, just because a collective is important it does not make every individual in that collective important (to use an analogy, humanity as a whole is important, that doesn't make every human important (or if you have an issue with humans, use roaches ). I'm glad that you agree that "importance" in some sense doesn't mean that each merits an article- but that is then an issue since that is precisely what seems to be what Bahn is trying to argue - that they are somehow important enough to merit articles and no argument for that has been given, as to your gratuitous swipe at "deletionists" (who seem to be some sort of boogeyman more than actual people anyways) possibly not going to school, one has the same problem- in fact, we have all gone to corner stores and retail outlets as well. JoshuaZ 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Schools are "importatnt." They certainly are more important than "corner stores and retail outlets". My community taxes me a few thousand dollars a year to run each and every school in our public school system, presumably because society in general feels that schools, and the education they provide, are notable. I had put my comment asking for more details regarding your position, but it was ignored, hence my confusion at your failure to respond while pumping others for details of their justifications. While it doen't mean that all schools merit a Wikipedia article, schools are inherently important. After all, even deletionists went to school somewhere. And if they didn't, it explains a great deal. Alansohn 20:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- You are being ridiculous. First of all, I didn't make this an attack about "individual beliefs" (if anyone you did by responding to my inquiry for logic with an essentially unrelated inquiry. If you had put your inquiry where my deletion comment was that would have made sense, but the placement here seems to be some sort of ad hominem attack, in that the implication seems to be something along the lines of "oh look, he has what might be an extreme view, therefore his request for further information should be ignored" (and before anyone makes noise about it, this is ad hominem in the technical sense, not a personal attack and I'm not claiming otherwise). And no I wouldn't delete such information from the school district article because a small summary of a little info about each school in the district is not intrinsically unreasonable (see my above comment wherein I say that I won't mind a merger too much). I also object to your claims that I have "deletionist biases" - thinking something should be removed when you think it should stay doesn't magically make me habe "deletionist biases" and claiming that is ironic since you are in fact attacking individuals even as you claimed that I was doing so. Finally, none of this is at all relevant to the basic question to which I have not yet recieved an answer- why is this school "important"? JoshuaZ 19:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Why attack indviduals for their belief that school articles are worth keeping when they only serve as counterweights to your own deletionist biases? Are you suggesting that you would delete information about this school if it were merged into ABC Unified School District as nonencyclopedic? Alansohn 18:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Sure- Because there isn't any evidence that there is anything inherently notable about this school and no reason to bother keeping it at all. Merge implies some reason that we want the information here, I have seen no reason to think that (I don't mind mergers in general and won't mind a merger too much in this case but it would make much more sense to just delete it). And I note that the above does not constitute a response to explain Bahn Mi's assertion which is still unanswered. If you could explain how this school is important I'd appreciate it. JoshuaZ 18:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: Can you explain why you feel that any information about this school is so utterly insignificant that you oppose a merge and insist on delete? Alansohn 17:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Organic growth is nothing but a buzzword and do you care to explain why the school is important? JoshuaZ 17:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect as above and per WP:LOCAL. JYolkowski // talk 22:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Arbusto 23:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Carlossuarez46 02:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect per above. In an ideal world, that's what we'd do with most elementary and middle school articles. BryanG(talk) 05:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep, content meets all relevant policies. No objection to an appropriate merge. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Redirect to ABC Unified School District, it has already been merged. Vegaswikian 04:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
