Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Warrant

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete, without prejudice to recreation if and when the potential independent sources mentioned in the discussion actually are available. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Warrant

Black Warrant (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

as well as:

Resurrection album (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Recover (album) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Desi (album) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Silent Wish (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Recover II (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Electric (Pakistani album) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Wow! The first Pakistani band to cover a Rammstein song IN GERMAN! Er, right. Sadly there are no sources to back the assertions of notability in this article, and the assertions are in any case distinctly arbitrary; unless the Pakistani metal scene is particularly important (which to the best of my knowledge it is not), being among the first Pakistani metal bands is not actually significant. They also appear to be self-published. Guy (Help!) 10:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• Since no one has said anything here yet, I took the liberty to add the articles about their albums to this nomination, as their fate is inexorably linked to that of the band article. Punkmorten 18:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• There was an article in The News about various metal bands, and their contributions were acknowledged, plus in a book on heavy metal in Muslim world by Mark Levine, their contributions are written. This article needs some editing but not deletion. D3si 3 June 2007

• There was some material that I couldn't find reference and verify, therefore it was removed. Confirmed it with Mark Levine that he met the band for his book on heavy metal in Muslim world. Therefore the article should stay. Demetree 6 June 2007
• Delete all unless multiple non trivial third party references are added by the end of this AfD. Single reference claimed (but not linked or verified) above is not sufficient. A1octopus 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep I think the book everyone is looking for is "Heavy Metal Islam: Rock Resistance and the Untold Story of Islam's Generation-X" by Mark LeVine, published by Random House. Seems like it is held up in printing and is not widely available to the public. As such, I wouldn't include it in the references right away. Fans are talking about putting together all the articles that are in Pakistani papers and such, but I couldn't find any of them available online except the one in "The Nation" which is a rather short interview. The band has a significant number of albums and apparently some fanbase in a country that's pretty well documented as a bad environment for most music of this type. Self publishing seems to be closer to the norm in non-western countries and may arguably be following suit elsewhere. A lot can be said for greater artistic control and a larger cut of the profits; especially for smaller bands. There is good content here, and with a little more cleanup I doubt anybody would think it controversial in the least. It would be great if more references could be immediately found, but I think it would take an editor from Pakistan to get them. I know it's not particularly relevant (and I hesitate to say it), but if the almost universal lack of references in other articles about bands is any indication, the community at large doesn't seem to require as much of bands as it does of say biography of living persons. As for the list of albums, I would say they should be merged to the band if the article remains. If anybody really finds the article questionable as to references or verifiability, there are templates for that. Aspenocean 19:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think the reason we're all looking for that book is that it doesn't exist. Replace "not widely available" with "never published". Maybe you know this LeVine dude; I don't know how else you would have seen a copy of the MS. Although I found some journalistic/blog pages from 2006 referring to the book as "forthcoming in 2007", the guy's own faculty page at UC Irvine merely lists the book as "forthcoming", confusingly, from both Random House and Verso Books, which are two separate publishers (Verso is an imprint of W. W. Norton & Company; maybe Verso gets UK rights?) The reference to the book only exists in the LeVine article because you put it there. On a more personal note, I'm a book retailer in NYC, and I can safely say there is no reference to the book whatsoever in any of RH's catalogues for their current backlist or forthcoming books. Not one single online retailer like Amazon.com or Barnes&Noble.com has any reference to the book as existing or forthcoming either. I don't understand how several editors are referencing this thing. I can't find a shred of evidence that suggests it was ever released by RH or Verso in even galley form, let alone actual publication. Ford MF 21:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I will say here that anyone can read this line in my previous statement for themselves: "As such, I wouldn't include it in the references right away." I will not "replace" anything I said in my previous statement. Notice I didn't make any claims as to what was in the book, and in fact I don't know "this LeVine dude." I only made a statement as to which book I thought other editors were refering to because it seemed vague. My previous statements should be indicitive of the fact that I didn't consider it a reference that influenced my thoughts on the article. Further, I said up front that it was apparently held up in printing and not widely available in case anyone else might try to refer to it in regards to this article. I will now append that statement by telling everyone that since I made that statement other sources suggest that this book will likely not hit retailers until spring of 2008. I will openly admit here that this is my original research as to a book previously mentioned only vaguely by other editors, and will not make any personal claims as to expertise as a book retailer. I will assume good faith here if anyone wants to make the claim that they couldn't find anything about the publication of the book. I will likewise assume good faith if somebody claims to have read a copy of the whole book or the section that deals with this band. Though my edit to Mark LeVine needs no defending, I will tell any reader that cares to read this far the steps leading up to that edit (please go to that link if you have any questions as to whether I made good faith edits to that article). First somebody mentioned in this discussion a book about heavy metal in the Muslim world by Mark LeVine. Second, since there was no book title here, I searched Wiki to see if there was an article on Mark LeVine. There was an article but no mention of the book. So I had to do other searches outside Wiki to determine the actual title of the book. Once I found it I posted it in that article and here as well. Of the other changes made to that article, no one mentions that I also put in a link to his faculty page in case anybody following the thread of this discussion wanted to know more about who he is and see what sort of work he has published (a large portion of which is peer reviewed). I may add further references to that article in the future, so please if anybody else has an objection to me editing an article that has very little to do with this discussion I would appreciate hearing about it. On another note in regards to a previous editor's reference to "The News," I think he may be referring to this respectable online journal. As for my own research there, I can only say that I was unable to access their archives and I don't know for certain that was the reference anyway. Further, if anybody here needs more clarification on the statement I previously labled as keep just let me know. I'm want to be as clear as possible to minimize the chance of misunderstanding. Special thanks to anybody who has bothered to read this far. Aspenocean 11:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, W.marsh 17:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep on the basis of what User:Aspenocean said.Eastmain 17:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletions. -- Eastmain 17:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all on the basis of being a self-released, home-recorded, probably non-notable band with virtually no coverage in secondary sources outside a one-page interview in The Nation, so the assertion that they're the first metal band in Pakistan is pretty much 100% unsourced. And the phantom LeVine book doesn't count. Sources that do not actually exist but are supposed to exist at some nebulous time in the future are not really sources at all. Ford MF 21:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, am I retarded? Why can't I find this in any of the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion logs? It should be in June 2, but it's not. Was the AfD improperly listed? Ford MF 21:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Note. Relisted because it doesn't appear to have been appended to the logs in the first place. Forgive me if I goofed and just missed it. Ford MF 21:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 01:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.