Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bermudian English

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep per consensus and rewrite/referencing of Paularblaster (closed by non-admin) . RMHED (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bermudian English

Bermudian English (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

original research; notability; false information; page becoming vandal bait (for example, commercial link to whitesmoke.com since August) MoongateAgain 00:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Keep, it seems that there is a specific dialect in Bermuda, whether or not the current details on the page are true or not. If sources cannot be found in short order, stubify the page and start from scratch. Lankiveil 00:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC).
• Delete Article is entirely original research - leaves it unable to be "salvaged." The only source listed is not WP:RS per the guidelines. ++Arx Fortis 01:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: While it is clearly an actual dialect, Verifiability is needed, however I am unable to provide any. - Rjd0060 01:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• comment. What about this as a source? http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Bermudian+English Hmains 03:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately that is a mirror of the Wikipedia article. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 03:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
    • How can you tell whether WP is the source or the free dictionary reference is the source and WP is a copy of that (with just the examples left off)? Hmains 17:49, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
      • The small text at the end of the freedictionary page where it says that "This article is copied from an article on Wikipedia®" :O) FlowerpotmaN·(t) 20:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Just reread that and it sounded a bit sarcastic, which it wasn't meant to be. Generally, if a page reads almost the same as the Wikipedia article, it could be a mirror of a Wikipedia article, so that's the time to see if there is a disclaimer or note to that effect.FlowerpotmaN·(t) 21:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep per Lankiveil. For example, here is a use of the term in a paper from 1933 [1]. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 03:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: 1933, of course, was generations ago. MoongateAgain 20:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Well, a single generation ago in my case (just about). As a rule, notability isn't something that is time-dependent. If something was notable once, then notability is geneally satsified. And there are curent references. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 21:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Sorry, I did not clarify my comment; my complaint was on using a source from 1933 — 74 years ago — to describe how people in Bermuda speak today; as a rule-of-thumb, a "generation" is a timespan between 25 and 30 years (though the wikiarticle seems to push this to 20-30). MoongateAgain 18:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge with Caribbean English. Although Bermuda is situated just north of the Caribbean, the influence of the Caribbean is evident. Blackjays1 10:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge Per above, would object to a keep. Twenty Years 13:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. This article about a dialect of English was probably written by a native speaker of said dialect, and that would explain the lack of sourcing. As for merging with Caribbean English, Bermuda is too far to the North to be part of the Caribbean Islands. --Blanchardb-Me^MyEars_MyMouth-timed 13:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: per the talk page of the article in question, native speakers would disagree with you. MoongateAgain 20:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I'm not saying that Bermuda is part of the Caribbean, Blanchardb. I'm talking about the influence that the Caribbean has on Bermuda's people because of it's proximity to that region. Bermuda is also a member of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM). Blackjays1 00:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment The article also states that, while such influence is present in the Bermudian dialect, other influences are present as well, and that leaves me the impression that it makes a language different enough than Caribbean English to be considered separately. --Blanchardb-Me^MyEars_MyMouth-timed 00:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment. There's definitely a distinct type of English in Bermuda, but according to this report on Bermudian English, the dialect has been "long neglected" in linguistics. It should also be noted that Bermuda doesn't have its own Creole. If the dialect has been "neglected", that leaves me to think Bermudian English isn't notable enough, and this article should be merged with Caribbean English, if not another article. Blackjays1 (talk) 05:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The Oxford Companion to the English Language gives it an individual entry, and in the general article on "English" lists it under "English (Americas)", with "English (The Caribbean)" being a separate class. --Paularblaster 16:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Or maybe Merge. That college paper provides a lot of sources for the idea that there is something unique about Bermudian English. In any event, it seems evident that an island would give rise to a particular kind of English worthy of study. As for whether Bermuda is part of the Caribbean, I refer you to the schedule of courses for Bermuda College, which offers a class in "Caribbean Literature," as follows: "A study of novels, sort stories and poetry, written in English, reflecting the cultural variety and historical richness of the literature of the Caribbean area. Works by representative authors such as Lovelace, Lamming, Frederick, Patterson, Rhys, Naipaul and Walcott are included." [[2]] Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 22:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Good point about the literature course - not a Bermudian among them. --Paularblaster 00:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• • Comment: "That college paper" only provides a few sources on speech in Bermuda: one from 1933, a mock dictionary by a comedy troupe and some newspaper editorials, one of which the student discounts as being written by somebody who has no knowledge of speech in Bermuda. "worthy of study." - could you provide some such studies? MoongateAgain 18:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no, I can't. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 22:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm adding what little I've found to the article itself. There isn't much on Bermudian English (oddly: if I was a sociolinguist I can't think of a better place to be paid to go and do reseach), but all sources agree that it has interesting dissimilarities with Caribbean English, and similarities to mainland N.Am. English. --Paularblaster 00:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletions. -- DoubleBlue (Talk) 00:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of that - there are universities in England, I am sure, that offer courses in American literature, yet last time I checked England was not in the United States. None of the names mentioned is a Bermudian writer - Lamming is Barbadian, for example, and Lovelace and Naipaul are from Trinidad and Tobago. Bermudians tend to fiercely proclaim that they are not Caribbean, FWIW. Grutness...wha? 02:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
• Rather than just add the references I ended up rewriting the whole thing - hopefully it will now be apparent from the text itself that it should have its own article, and it shouldn't be merged with "Caribbean English"> --Paularblaster 01:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep based on Paularblaster's well-sourced changes to the article since the AfD began. Wikipedia normally tries to covers every dialect of a language that has been credibly identified by linguists. --A. B. ^(talk) 01:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Caribbean-related deletions. -- A. B. ^(talk) 01:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• comment could you add the correct Bermudian pronounciation of 'Where is that boy?' to contrast it with same statement in the Caribbean English article. Thanks Hmains 05:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Changing my vote to Keep. The article is now well-referenced, and it even provides a good example of the dialect in the last sentence. Blackjays1 15:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.