Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ben Mills

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Runcorn 20:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ben Mills

Ben Mills (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Only notable at the moment for participating in a reality show, no record deal or songs as yet. Similar articles have been deleted/redirected in the past. Recreate when he's confirmed as releasing a single or album. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 09:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

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Given that he finished a very credible 3rd place in this competition, it is felt that Ben has gained a certain amount of notability. It states in the criteria for musicians and ensembles that a muscian is notable if "Has won or placed in a major music competition." (Point 9). Benmillsonline 09:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. "Music" competition? Come on... Recreate if he sells any albums. yandman 10:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Given the scale and popularity of the X Factor, it should be classed as a major competition. Personal opinions as to the integrity of the show should not form part of this discussion. Benmillsonline 10:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Fails WP:SELF, non-notable. Charlie 10:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Please state while why you feel this article fails WP:SELF? Benmillsonline 10:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I think WP:AUTO or WP:COI may apply. As in a fair amount of the editing was done by Benmillsonline. Tubezone 10:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Please note, Benmillsonline is a username used by a Ben Mills fansite. Whilst we are indeed supporters of Ben Mills, the article was written by us and not by Ben Mills himself, nor on his behalf. Benmillsonline 11:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
My apologies.. what I meant to say, is WP:BIO, but WP:MUSIC addresses the issue more succinctly. To be notable, "It[he/she] has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable. This criterion includes published works in all forms... except...publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves." The only source listed is an interview, thus that criteria for inclusion is not met. The only other one within WP:MUSIC That has been brought up, is "Has won or placed in a major music competition," so it seems that this discussion ought to come down to either determining whether X-Factor is a "major" competition, and whether finishing third overall counts towards the intended spirit of "win or place." As for that, I must say I am now sitting on the fence. Charlie 10:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Journey South also finished the X Factor in 3rd place last year. The history shows their page was published long before the end result and certainly long before they released their first album. It was not deleted and redirected elsewhere at any time. Benmillsonline 10:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC) — Benmillsonline (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
However, I don't believe that past articles not being deleted provides any reason not to delete this one. Charlie 10:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete unless other sources of notability turn up... like, say, references to the sordid tabloid revelations mentioned in Digital Spy. Keep provided references are added to article. There certainly seems to be enough sources. Tubezone 10:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that Journey South can provide a good basis for comparison for the kinds of changes the article needs to avoid deletion. Its focus is on biographical information, and it cites third-party sources. If some of the non-biographical information was removed, and a third party source produced, I will gladly change my opinion. Charlie 11:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to make suggestions for changes? Which content would you see removed or replaced? Benmillsonline 11:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
For example: "He states his musical influences as Joe Cocker, Tom Waits, Rod Stewart and David Bowie and some of his favourite artists are Elvis Costello, Bruce Springsteen, Dire Straits, and James Brown. He classes Jim Morrison as a legend." This information is unsourced, and does not seem particularly pertinent, unless a third party source has expressed that these statements are notable in some way. This is also a particularly tricky issue, as we are now talking about the opinions of a living person in an article. That had *better be sourced, or we face potential libel. Charlie 11:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This can be sourced and will be if I'm permitted the time to find the relevant links and edit accordingly. Benmillsonline 11:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete per nom, with no predjudice against re-creating the article if he achieves commercial success. Tevildo 15:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Unsigned artist with no published albums and no AMG profile. Fails WP:MUSIC. Caknuck 16:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The above does not necessarily denote Fails WP:MUSIC. Wikipedia states notable if meets any one of the criteria listed. See no. 9 in Criteria for musicians and ensembles. Benmillsonline 17:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Just H 16:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This guy is famous in the UK, so should have his moment of fame, if you look on google etc. you can find him, so why not on here?!?! If he does not get a record deal, by the next XFactor, then it should be deleted, as weveryone will hav forgotten him, but at the moment everyone knows of him, so may wish to find out more about him. His is equally if not more famous than some of the soap actors, who have there own pages. Asics 20:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom - nn person, fails WP:MUSIC and smacks of my favorite Carly Simon song. SkierRMH 21:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I have already shown that Ben Mills doesn't fail WP:MUSIC. Also, your personal opinion of him has no bearing on whether or not he is notable enough to have a page here. Benmillsonline 21:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and Caknuck. If the creator truly thinks he's famous, just think how famous he'll be 12 months from now! Have the creator of the entry recreate it in December 2007.TruthGal 22:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Again, this is personal opinion and an assumption that he will fail in his bid to gain a recording contract. You cannot possibly know that. Benmillsonline 22:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
And again, there's no guarantee that he will be a successful recording artist. To base notability on an assumption that the subject will be more successful once they release an album violates WP:CRYSTAL. Sorry, mate. Caknuck 04:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not basing notability on the fact that he may become a successful recording artist, and there is nothing in the article that suggests he will, only that he is planning to gather material together should the opportunity arise, so how can it fail WP:CRYSTAL? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Benmillsonline (talk • contribs) 08:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
  • Delete. Non-notable, regardless of fulfilling the letter of WP:MUSIC, and I'm not sure he meets WP:V. -Amarkov blahedits 23:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Bigtop 23:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as WP is not the place for people who may be famous someday. The article can be recreated if he releases an album.--Dmz5 05:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Third place in a TV music competition does not, especially on its own, confer notability. We can't speculate about whether or not he'll have a recording contract in the future as that would fail WP:Crystal. Recreate once he gets an album out. --The Way 08:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Certainly satisfies the major music competition clause of WP:MUSIC - The X Factor attracts 9 million UK viewers, and is amongst the ten most-viewed shows. Existing sources appear to satisfy the multiple references clause - there are also six non-trivial articles in The Sun relating to subject - issue date 11, 18, 27, 30 November, 2 and 11 December. Work with LA Doors may also be notable. Eludium-q36 14:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Satisfies major music competition clause (as per above), precedent established by entries from previous series of the competition - eg Journey South - as well as entries from other similarly sized competitions - eg American Idol - see Chris Daughtry entry (4th place). Concerns noted by some discussants regarding citations/references easily rectifiable, traceable to notable and credible sources (as demonstrated by copious editing post-submission for deletion by entry convenors). As noted by previous discussant, artist currently popular in the UK and more notable than a number of soap celebrities which have their own entries and many people are interested in finding out more about him. Advocate strongly for retention as not only is entry justified by satisfaction of Wiki policy but also that precedents have been established for entries of this nature. Guptatiggs 09:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
    • User Guptatiggs has no other edits besides thos emade within this discussion, possible single-use account. Caknuck 00:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep See reasons made above. DavidJJJ 13:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete NN, I agree Wikipedia is not the place for an article about someone who may or may not become famous. The appearance on the reality show alone is not enough. Davidpdx 09:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
An album is currently in the pipeline and Ben is sufficiently famous in the UK. He recently performed with a line-up of the best British comedians and had a rousing response. If there is no record by the time the next season of the X Factor comes along, then the entry can always be removed but as stated earlier, precedents have been estbalished for this sort of entry. Journey South's entry was up long before their debut album was released in March this year for eg. Guptatiggs 09:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, article has a fair assertion of notability, is moderately well written, and very well-referenced. It'd be nice if he continues to be written about, that the article could be expanded. But as it stands, the entry fulfils all policy requirements. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 17:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (for now) His fan forum is stating he just signed a record deal with Sony[1]. Obviously, this can still be classified as a rumor, but since this news is just a few days old it would be worth waiting for verification. If it turns out to be false then can be nominated again. (Also, the size of the forum - 252 members - might be a measuring stick). Citicat 17:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.