Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barony of Tabria

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. – Will (Take me down to the Paradise City) 09:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barony of Tabria

Original research, not a reputable source, not an important subject. Could be a hoax. I'm also adding many other pages in the category "Maltese nobility". Either they are unsourced, or they come from a small family of web sites. None of these web sites cite their sources. This subject would be of minor encyclopedic interest if a reputable source could be found. Historically, they may be interesting (but not without a good source). As for now, they look like vanity pages. Even if they do exist and have some bona fide claim to their titles, they would still be vanity pages if they're not mentioned anywhere in a reputable source. I'm not an expert, but apparently something like Burke's Peerage is a good source. There is no use in listing all of these baronies/noblethings as separate entries. It is promotion or vanity. Apparently it is all based on a single web site anyways. The user who made most of these has been notified on his talk page User:Tancarville

At best, they could make a single page referring to Malta nobility, their committee, with good sources, and then put in a link to their web page. Many of these pages were already listed as unsourced or original research.

The related pages I nominated are:

  • Barons di Baccari
  • Baron Ghariexem e Tabia
  • Baron de Pausier
  • Baron of Bauvso
  • Barons di Baccari
  • Barons di San Giovanni
  • Barons di San Paolino
  • Barony of Bahria
  • Barony of Benwarrad
  • Barony of Buleben
  • Barony of Gomerino
  • Barony of Qlejjgha
  • Bibino Magno
  • Brockdorff
  • Von brockdorff
  • Bugeja
  • Conte Giorgio Magro
  • Count Magri
  • Count Preziosi
  • Count of Beberrua
  • Count of Ciantar
  • Count of Ciantar-Paleologo
  • Count of Senia
  • Counts Vella-Clary
  • Counts di Santa Sofia
  • Counts of Catena
  • Counts of Għajn Tuffieħa
  • Counts of Mont'Alto
  • Counts of San Paolino d'Aquilejo
  • Marchese Drago
  • Count Fournier
  • Imperia Gatto
  • Giuseppe Said
  • Angeraldo Gatto Inguanez
  • Antonio Angeraldo Inguanez
  • Marchesi di San Giorgio
  • Marquis Mattei
  • Marquis Testaferrata-Olivier
  • Marquis de Piro
  • Marquis of Ghajn Qajjed
  • Marquis of Gnien-is-Sultan
  • Marquis of Taflia
  • Montagna di Marzo
  • Mġarr - (a town) - perhaps only the the tings on the nobility is needed to be deleted. Needs better sources anyway - this is WP:OR
  • Principe de Sayd
  • Sant Cassia
  • Francis Sant-Cassia
  • Testaferrata
  • Vassallo-Paleologo
  • Counts Von Zimmermann
  • Buttigieg De Piro - apparently some recognition by the living Queen Elisabeth of England?
  • Selimbria

I did not list the following pages in the same category because they have some sources:

  • Barony of Budaq (source still far below WP standards) source is given at the Casa Rocca Piccola web site, which apparently is a real museum
  • Barony of Castel Cicciano actually has book sources
  • Conti di San Marciano also has book sources
  • Louis-Philip d'Orleans doubtful - more notable?
  • Gerald Strickland, 1st Baron Strickland - unsourced but definitely more notable

Perhaps we should consider letting the article writer put in better sources. In these types of articles, the reference should be to an individual page in these books or at least a chapter, so that someone can borrow the book in their local library and check them. But since nearly all of these pages are written by a single author, and these types of pages may embroil Wikipedia in the less-reputable sale and promotion of old useless or practically extinct nobility titles, I think it is better to delete them. Also, note the possibility that most of the text here has been copied wholesale from one of the older book sources, hence breaking copyright/GFDL.

Also, could someone look for these pages in other language Wikipedias? - Janbrogger 10:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm tempted to say that anybody who'd pay money in order to call himself "count", "baron" or whatever deserves whatever fleecing he gets, but I suppose I should be charitable toward the vain and silly. Yes, the whole thing looks like a vanity scheme, which may or may not be based on facts -- which would anyway be rather silly and trivial facts. There's an emphasis on the present day, but no claim that I can see that these titles have any significance whatever in the present day. I hesitate to say "delete the lot" because I haven't even glanced at the whole lot, but they do look feeble. -- Hoary 11:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete. This is a grand hoax of User:Tancarville, aka Said Vassallo, which was exposed several years ago at alt.talk.royalty. This is one of the threads in which the author failed to produce any evidence to back up his claims. Please don't bring WP into disrepute by keeping deliberate spoof. --Ghirla -трёп- 11:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Reasons Why should I enter a public debate on googlies when one person has it against you and will go to lengths to prove you wrong, even if its a recognised source. One should read all the data instead of reading one line to see what the matter is about. People are too quick to judge -- Tancarville 08:28, 25 July 2006 (EST)
  • Delete all Surely one of these titles would have found a way to a reliable source if it were notable. Also note that the Maltese nobility article is rather dubious. GassyGuy 11:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all per WP:V, unless multiple, independent sources can be provided. Scorpiondollprincess 13:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • These pages were the subject of Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Maltese nobility. See also Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/De Piro, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fiddien, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maltese nobility. Uncle G 14:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all at least in the interim, per the prior discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Maltese nobility. Obscurity is not in itself grounds for deletion, and the genealogies of noble families are indeed encyclopedic. If there's grounds to believe that any of these articles are a hoax, I'd suggest the initial burden of persuasion is on those who are making that claim. Smerdis of Tlön 15:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • How do you prove that you can't find a way to prove something exists? GassyGuy 15:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Basically, by asking yourself "what would we expect to find, if this were true" and seeing if anything like that is there? I'm not going to vouch for these articles, but I think that calling them a hoax in bulk needs something a bit more convincing than a Usenet quarrel. Smerdis of Tlön 15:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I quite agree there. I'm not at all convinced that these articles are hoaxes. However, what I do think is that they fail to meet WP:V, so that is my main concern. GassyGuy 15:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Still delete the lot. The big question here is sources. Wikipedia articles must, must, must be based on reliable, reputable and verifiable sources. If the sources were there, I agree we should keep a subset of these articles. However, the reason that I nominated the lot is that the sources are extremely dubious. Apart from that, and adding weight to the deletion question is that these are NN, potentially ladden with copyright, and embroils Wikipedia in the dubious claims of "lost" nobility titles (as I suspected, and has been verified. Wikipedia will not even inch forward towards encyclopedic fame and reliability unless sources, sources, sources are emphasized. I'm an MD, PhD with a strong academic interest. It really is vital. This is a good example of what does not belong in Wikipedia - because of sources. Janbrogger 16:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest that we re-open the prior deision that pertains to the lot of them. The consensus reached about these articles back in early 2005 was that none of them were technically "original research," they were generally notable and verifiable (if with some difficulty), and as such they should remain. Several things have changed since then: verifiability and reference requirements have been substantially tightened, and the number of Maltese nobility articles has substantially increased, and arguably reaches to dubious claims or minor figure. Finally, there's the new claim that some or all of them represent hoaxes. Smerdis of Tlön 17:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all per Janbrogger. Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Maltese nobility is quite dated and it did not make a conclusion into its factual content, only if the subject matter is acceptable. hateless 18:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I find all of this quite...bizarre. Malta today has a population of about 400,000; with the long list of noble families listed at Maltese nobility (which seems to be the central hub article of all this strange stuff) and a rough estimate of Malta's population in the 1700s, it looks like about one in ten Maltese citizens woud have been a baron. Additionaly, Maltese nobility claims that most of these titles were created either directly by or under the influence of Paul I of Russia - I'm by no means an expert on 18th century history, but our own article on Paul I merely states that he gave refuge to the Knights Hospitallers after they were ejected from Malta, not that he ever did anything special on the island, let alone ever visited it. I'm inclined to say delete the lot as unverified and very probable, if elaborate, hoax - additionally, I think some serious fact-checking by someone with access to detailed and reliable books on Maltese history is in order. Depending on the findings of the research, Maltese nobility needs to be substantially rewtitten/expanded to explain either why there is such a ridiculously high density of noble titles, or to explain the fact that all of this is a hoax (which in itself seems widespread and notable enough to merit a mention in the article). This last point is technically not a part of the Afd discussion, but now that the issue has been brought up, we should not forget it once the Afd is closed -- Ferkelparade π 19:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Answer The Maltese were closely aligned with the Knights of St John and the Papacy. Of course there was never more then 5% of the population that were titled, though up to 10% of the population would have been nobility. 45% that claim to be of noble ancestry. The rest of the population were made up of working class people and slavery. -- Tancarville 08:34, 25 July 2006 (EST)
  • Keep... if and only if verifiable sources are cited.
    There are no notability concerns here; if the claims in these articles are true, then they are valid entries for an encyclopedia. However, I have to agree with the above posters that the lack of reliable sources is fatal. For example, the "references" section of Counts of Għajn Tuffieħa contains two websites (neither of which appears to cite any sources other than the other) and some "Unpublished research papers", which are obviously completely useless for our purposes.
    I am not convinced that there is any hoaxing going on. It's a commonplace that small European nations have disproportionately large aristocracies, and I can't see anything obviously implausible in the claims of the sample of articles I checked. However, the simple fact remains that Wikipedia requires that it be possible to verify articles in their entirety from the sources cited -- all the more so when the article has been accused of being a hoax! -- and at present I'm not capable of that, which means something is badly wrong. — Haeleth Talk 20:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: I'm sorry I brought up the hoax thing, it is a minor issue. I didn't know there had been a discussion before. It is probably not a hoax, and the copyright problems are gone. The major issues are: verifiability, reputable sources and original research. The pages even boast that they are original research! How can something like that be on Wikipedia! Janbrogger 22:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep ... Why do several pages claim they are AfDed but link here? Mġarr is a bona fide town. I am sure the local council of Mġarr can vouch for that. Is this a mistake, a joke, or what? 「ѕʀʟ·✎」
  • Keep Mgarr Mgarr is village in Malta, which historically is very important. Several prehistoric temples are found over there. Notability is not a question. DO NOT REMOVE! Maltesedog 06:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Note Mgarr really shouldn't be part of this nomination. It is an article on an acceptable subject that simply has to have a lot of the unverifiable material weeded out, whereas the rest are about subjects that are at their cores unverifiable. GassyGuy 21:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all (except Mgarr). I have argued to keep some of these in separate VfDs previously, based on the claimed notability, but the author has had plenty of time to add references to the articles and hasn't done so (and the collection of inexact references added everywhere now aren't useful). BTW, I went to the library and checked Brockdorff, which is a German noble family, in the Neue Deutsche Biographie and the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels (vol 2, 1952) and found no mention of a Maltese branch. This doesn't mean that a Maltese branch never existed, but I have not been able to verify it. up+land 07:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Modification: userfy to Tancarville's userspace, and have him re-add the articles to mainspace when they are referenced (with relevant page numbers etc) to reliable, well-referenced published works (not unpublished research papers). up+land 09:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
      • It seems that they stand or fall together. They are notable or not. They are encyclopedic or not., etc. here is another reference - via searchmalta.com which I consider reputable. I'm trying to get some additional voices conversant in Maltese history in here to vouch for the situation one way or another.. 「ѕʀʟ·✎」
  • Keep and References: Maltese nobility was part of the Order of St John of Malta for many centuries, its vitual to keep the nobility online.
  • The Adami Collection The National Library, Malta
  • Burkes Peerage, Baronetage and Knightage of the UK.-Various editions.
  • Cassar Desain, Marchese L.A., " Genealogia della famiglia Testaferrata di Malta." Malta, 1880.
  • Crispo Albero Genealogical ed Istorico della Famiglia Crispo, Messina, 1797.
  • De Piro, N., "Casa Rocco Piccola", The Conde' Nast Publications 1999.' Http://www.vol.net.mt/casarocca '
  • Gauci,C.A.," The Genealogy and Heraldry of the Noble Families of Malta", Gulf Publishing Ltd, Malta, 1981.
  • Gauci,C.A.," The Genealogy and Heraldry of the Noble Families of Malta, Volume Two", Publishers Enterprises Group (PEG) Ltd, 1992.
  • Gauci,C.A and Mallet, P.,"The Palaeologos Family- A Genealogical Review" ,Publishers Enterprises Group (PEG) Ltd, 1985
  • Gauci, C.A.," A Guide to the Maltese Nobility", Publishers Enterprise Group (PEG) Ltd, Malta, 1986.
  • Giles Ash, S., "The Nobility of Malta", Publishers Enterprises Group (PEG) Ltd, 1988.
  • Tancarville also posted this on JanBrogger's userpage [User talk:Jan Brogger]: Do you really know what your doing by deleting all of the Maltese nobility? There are already previous requests for deletion and some were deleted and some were not. If its all based on references then check and ask. Tancarville 08:39, 21 July 2006 (EST)
  • Tancarville has now added the exact same set of references listed above to all the pages. This is an improvement, but still falls short of adequate references. First of all, the references themselves must be improved so that it would in fact be possible to get the books. Citing "various editions" is imprecise - please provide at least 1 or 2 actual editions and their info (ISBNs/publisher, year etc). For any recent books, ISBNs should be listed. The "Adami Collection" is clearly inadequate - is it a book? When, where, by whom was it published? According to a Google search the Adami may be "The Adami Collection Database birth records for Malta ". The second problem is the preciseness of references. You cannot simply cite a whole database, and similarly it is not good practice to cite a lump set of 10 books. For each and every noble title, actual page numbers or at least chapters should be produced. In Library of Congress and Amazon, the only book I found of the ones listed "Nicholas de Piro: Casa Rocca Piccola: Home of a Maltese Noble Family, 74 Republic Street, Valetta, Malta: An Historic House, ISBN 1871684757".
  • I did find the Publishers Enterprise Group. Apparently all the books he has listed are available from their web site. E.g. "The Genealogy and Heraldry of the Noble Families of Malta (Vol1)" is listed at [1] and has ISBN ISBN 99909-0-329-8.
  • Let me reiterate again that it is sources and original research that is the problem - I have nothing against Maltese nobility. In fact, I would be quite happy to have the articles there if in fact they have good sources and only a minimum of original research. As an example of what I think is acceptable research and sourcing is:
    • referencing the Adami collection with an actual record number, or enough information that I can find it myself (potentially).
    • Enough detail on the books to easily be able to retrieve them, with precise enough references (chapters at least).
      • Well these references cover all of the Maltese nobility, but I will need to go through each one to cite page, chapter, isbn etc. Thats no problem, but I shall need time hopefully completed in several days. I do realise that I was asked before and never got around to completing this task. This certainly has gotten myself to do something that should have been done originally.Tancarville 22:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
  • And still, Tancarville has not answered the "original research" charge. His pages clearly state that this is his own research, which is not allowed. What is his own research, and what is taken from the books?
  • Changed my vote. Keep if and only if the references are much improved. Janbrogger 07:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Count Fournier conflicts with deleted article Stephen Sant Fournier Maltesedog 20:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Have you ever studied Maltese history Maltesedog, you shall find that the Sant-Fourniers are as famous in Malta as the Duke of Wellington to England. Read and research before making comments. The Present Count is also quite easily found in Malta!!!-- Lastly, this is a hoax claim [2] --Tancarville 08:34, 25 July 2006 (EST)
      • Question: "The Present Count", you say. I took a look at Maltese nobility and there read: The Maltese nobility consist of those titles of nobility recognised by the British and those titles never presented to, or failed recognition by, the Royal Commission, even though the titles were of historical relevance. . . . and Foreign titles which were either confirmed or inherited by a person of Maltese descent. That's slightly unclear at the start, but toward the end it seems to me to indicate that the nobility is a matter of the past. My reading of articles about Malta informs me that Malta is a republic, a parliamentary democracy with a directly elected unicameral assembly. I see no particular space within this for nobility and no mention of nobles. Oddly, Category:Maltese society lacks an article on Maltese society, but again as I look around I see no indication of the significance of this "nobility". I therefore tentatively infer that, whatever significance Maltese nobility may have had in the past, it is now merely a matter of personal amusement, snobbery (membership of "old money") or whatever. (And the "now" seems not to date from independence; rather, this page seems to imply that political significance of the nobility disappeared in 1921 if not earlier.) What significance does membership of the nobility have now? If it has no real significance, then what's the justification for describing those "title holders" (such as the present "Count Sant Fournier") who postdate its loss of significance? -- Hoary 09:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Reply Hi Hoary, here is an interview with the Maltese Nobility by DW (Deutsche Well) - Radio. Many Thanks to Helen Seeney for the rights to usage of this very interesting interview compiled in January 2005. Press 01 Track 1.wma for the interview. Helen Seeney, from the European Desk, Deutsche Welle Radio, Bonn Germany; interviews. Ensure you send us your comments. The URL is based from my site, if it doesnt work, I shall send a copy via E-Mail. Click Here A InterviewThis interview provided should give you a fair idea of the Maltese nobility as a whole.-- Tancarville 22:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
        • I couldn't listen, as the file is in proprietary Windows format. I did skimread two or three of the interviews, and the gist seems to be that, whatever significance the titles had in the past, they have no significance now. (A contino writes: I doubt the general population occupies any of its waking hours thinking about the nobility.) This reinforces my view that coverage of the "nobility" should stop when the nobility ceased to have political or social significance. Again, I don't claim to know when that was, but my impression is that it was no later than 1921. -- Hoary 08:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all except the town, due to lack of reliable and accessible sources. Stifle (talk) 19:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
    • comment PEG publishing is a real publishing house. 「ѕʀʟ·✎」
      • Further comment I have added a list of references which should do for the moment. Though timing at the moment isnt good, I shall keep an eye on the whole affair while on holidays in Malta. -- Tancarville 08:39, 25 July 2006 (EST)
  • Delete All Not notable nobles. --Cheesehead 1980 13:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Unjust Comments How can you justify that the Maltese nobility are not notable. There are many well known nobles of Maltese origin and you simply shun them off. Firstly, here you may find some interesting articles of Maltese nobility and their connections to Europe. Notable Nobles of Malta

and secondly here is a list which I provided to a site of notable.

    • Knights of the British orders of Maltese noble descent
      • Cav. Giuseppe Antonio Apap, Marquis di Gnien is-Sultan, CMG, 1833.
      • Cav. Dr. Vincenzo Azopardi-Zamit, Baron of Buleben, CMG, 1842.
      • Cav. Romualdo Barbaro, Count of Santi, CMG, 1834.
      • Cav. Prof Albert Victor Bernard, CMG, 1945. brother of the Count Bernard
      • Cav. Lieut Col Joseph Francis Bernard, CMG, 1916.
      • Sir Ignazio Gavino Bonavita, K.C.M.G., 1856, a kin of the Counts of San Paolino d’Aquileja
      • Sir Claudio Vincenzo Bonici, K.C.M.G., 1835. a kin of the Barons of Qlejjgha
      • Sir Giuseppe Borg Olivier, G.C.M.G., 1818. a kin of the Marquis of Ghajn Qajjed.
      • Cav. Vincenzo, Marquis Bugeja CMG, 1876.
      • Mgr. Sir Maurus Caruana, K.B.E.,1918. a descendant of the Marquis Testaferrata de Noto
      • Cav. Lorenzo Antonio, Marquis Cassar Desain, CMG, 1885.
      • Sir Vincent Casolani, K.C.M.G., 1853. a descendant of the Formosa de Fremaux family
      • Sir Giorgio Serafina, Count Ciantar Paleologo, KCMG, 1882.
      • Sir Giuseppe Calcedonio Debono, G.C.M.G., 1832. a descendant of the Marquis Testaferrata de Noto
      • Cav. Maj Giuseppe, Marquis de Piro, CMG, 1833.
      • Cav. Giuseppe Lorenzo de Piro, Marchesino de Piro, CMG, 1887.
      • Sir Giuseppe Maria de Piro, Baron of Budaq, GCMG, 1856.
      • Cav. Maj Saverio, Marquis de Piro, CMG, 1882.
      • Sir Paolo Dingli, K.C.M.G., 1860, by marriage connected to the Mompalao family
      • Cav. Lorenzo Galea Feriol, Baron of San Marciano., CMG, 1833.
      • Count, Archbishop, Sir Michele Gonzi, K.B.E., 1946.
      • Sir Vincenzo Manduca, Count of Mont’Alto, KCMG, 1833.
      • Cav. Vincenzo Mamo CMG, 1859. a kin of the Mompalao family
      • Cav. Saverio, Count Marchese, CMG, 1833.
      • Cav. Col Antonio Mattei, CMG, 1877. a kin of the Marchese Mattei
      • Sir Paolo Pariso Moscati, K.C.M.G., 1836, husband to Baroness of Grua and later to the Baroness of Budaq.
      • Cav. Lieut Col Achilles Samut CMG, 1901, by marriage a kin to the Counts Tagliaferro
      • Cav. Luigi Sant, Count Sant, CMG, 1833.
      • Sir Filippo Sceberras, Kt.Bach., 1921. a kin of the Barons of Castel Cicciano.
      • Sir Nicholas Sceberras Bologna, Count of Catena., KCMG, 1868.
      • Sir Pasquale Sceberras Trigona, Baron of Castel Cicciano., KCMG, 1868.
      • Lord Gerald Strickland, Count of Catena, GCMG, 1913.
      • Cav. Capt. Giacomo Tagliaferro, CMG., 1856. a kin of the Counts Tagliaferro
      • Sir Giuseppe Vincenzo Testaferrata, KCMG, 1833.
      • Cav. Augusto Testaferrata Abela, Baron of Gomerino, CMG, 1880.
      • Cav Ugo Testaferrata Abela, Baron of Gomerino, CMG, 1901.
      • Cav. Hon Francis Vella CMG, 1893. descendant of the Marquis di San Vincenzo Ferreri
      • Cav. Hon Giovanni Vella CMG, 1868. descendant of the Marquis di San Vincenzo Ferreri
      • Cav. Dr Paolo Vella CMG, 1890. descendant of the Marquis di San Vincenzo Ferreri
      • Sir Raffaele Crispino Xerri, G.C.M.G., 1818. brother to the Countess of Beberrua
      • Sir Joseph Nicholas Zammit, K.C.M.G., 1818. father to the Baroness of Buleben
      • Sir Temistole Zammit, Kt.Bach., 1930. by marriage, a kin to the Marquis di San Giorgio
      • Some Noble Bishops of Maltese nobility
      • Mons . Saverio Caruana Gatto , Malta - 1831
      • Mons . Publio Sant from 1847 to 1857 Archbishop of Malta
      • Mons . Fra. Gaetano Pace Forno, Bishop of Malta, (r. 1857-74 his grandfather was Baron Forno of Sicily )
      • Mons . Conte Carmelo Scicluna D.D – 1875
      • Mons . Count Sir Michael Gonzi, KBE., Last Bishop of Malta , (r. 1943-44)
      • Mons . Antonio Grech Delicata, Bishop of Gozo, (r. 1868-76), Baroncino di Budaq, Nominated by the Baroness of Budaq, but failed to succeed upon her death.
      • Other Nobles of the Saintly order
      • The Venerable Maria Adeodata Pisani O.S.B. 1806-1855, Baronessina di Frigenuini
        • Do you all believe the Maltese nobility are a Hoax? Do you all believe that the Maltese nobility are not notable? Do you believe that its not worth the hassel to be placed online? -- Tancarville 07:10, 29 July 2006 (EST)
          • I don't understand who it is that you are asking here. As for me, no, I don't believe that "Maltese nobility" is, in its entirety, a hoax. But the long list doesn't impress me at all. Let's take "Sir Temistole Zammit, Kt.Bach." as an (interestingly named) example: I'd say that if he is noteworthy for what he did, he deserves an article; and that if he's slightly noteworthy for what he did, he deserves a part of a larger article -- but that his mere existence in some genealogical record is not something of any concern to Wikipedia. I'm also wondering why nobody has explained just what the significance (to Maltese politics, economics, society, etc.) was of its nobility, when and how its significance (apparently) fizzled to nothing, or why it is worth mentioning who have been the Counts, Continos, etc., of what, after this fizzling to nothing. -- Hoary 01:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I seem to have received a reply from a history professor at the University of Malta who mentioned working Tabria specifically. I don't want to quote him here until everything is understood, but it could be an important commentary here. He seems to think the Maltese Nobility are important. 「ѕʀʟ·✎」

[edit] Move to Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Maltese nobility?

It has been suggested that this discussion be moved to: Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Maltese nobility~ - Janbrogger 22:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

  • FYI there is also this article: List of claimants to the title of Principe de Sayd (I don't feel qualified to vote in this, but that is the other one that is on my watchlist, aside from Principe de Sayd, it should be included in whatever class action is taken). Jdcooper 22:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.