Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baltimore bus beating
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete; (request to merge was considered, but as described by nom, was already done prior to AFD). JERRY talk contribs 02:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Baltimore bus beating
As someone had mentioned earlier, Wikipedia is not WikiNews. Some of what is mentioned in this article has already been added to several other articles, including MTA Maryland Route 15 and MTA Maryland Route 27 (I since improved what was initially written in these articles). The appropriate places to write about these events is either in the articles on these bus routes, on the Maryland Transit Administration main page by creating a new section, or to create a new article generally about crime on MTA Maryland not limited to these beatings, but at a historical point of view. I would like to see a discussion about what is best. Sebwite (talk) 02:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merge per nom, can't think how, but WP:NOT#NEWS is part of an official policy.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 04:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Transwiki into WikiNews. Wikipedia is NOT news and this thing only happened a month ago. If this is continually in the news for an extended period of time, which I don't see happening, then there could be some ground to keep on. Unless this happens, I don't see this staying as an article. Tavix (talk) 05:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Comment There are loopholes to most of the policies on what Wikipedia is not that allow certain categories, like news, to be included. Short term news stories like this one that receive coverage for a month, then die down, can be included in a small paragraph in another related article. Already, someone inserted a paragraph into MTA Maryland Route 27 about this. I've been following the coverage of this story myself since it first happened, and it has been kept alive in part by other similar events, which may or may not continue in the future. Some of these other events are also mentioned in the articles on the respective bus lines. For now, this seems like the appropriate place to merge this article. Should more incidents like this take place in the future, it may be worth creating an article that documents the overall situation, but a whole article on a local interest story by itself does not seem to fit Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion.Sebwite (talk) 05:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- p.s. I have just merged the contents of this article into the article MTA Maryland Route 27, improved the writing style, and slightly updated it.Sebwite (talk) 05:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note that WikiNews uses at this time a license incompatible with the GFDL, so a Transwiki is not really possible. --Dhartung | Talk 07:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete, I'm sure that Wikinews doesn't want this rather POV piece anyway. Wikipedia is not a news service. Lankiveil (talk) 11:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC).
- Delete Someone had a good idea, but this is not sufficiently newsworthy to merit an article. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 20:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep who says this is news? This is an article about a hate crime, just like our articles on James Byrd, Jr., Amy Biehl or the Zebra murders. It is still developing but that doesn’t mean it can simply be swept away as a news article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schrandit (talk • contribs) 20:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment There are multiple differences between this article and the others you have listed:
- It is still being investigated whether or not this actually was a hate crime. A hate crime is not defined as any crime where the demographic categories of the victims and the perpetrators differ - hate crimes are crimes that are specifically motivated by bias against a specific group. Whether that bias actually exists has not been determined in this instance.
- Events like the dragging death of James Byrd received media attention around the country and occasionally the world. This event has yet to receive significant coverage outside of the Baltimore area.
- That press coverage is usually sustained for months and sometimes years, in the national and international press. This event has not sustained lengthy press coverage. Newspapers outside of the Baltimore area generally gave this one brief, and then ceased coverage. Natalie (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment There are multiple differences between this article and the others you have listed:
- Delete Given my remarks above. This appears to be a crime of purely local significance and has not sustained the national coverage necessary to demonstrate notability. Natalie (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete This is a non-notable event outside of the Baltimore area. I live 50 miles away from Baltimore in the Philadelphia newsmarket and have heard nothing on the local news about this or similiar events in the Baltimore area. Document the occurences in the appropriate MTA articles and delete this article. Jons63 (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep This is a notable event in Baltimore and being only of local interest is not cause for removal, or is hardly an enforced criteria. I am sure we can all point to local interests that no one outside our areas have likely ever read. Mdlawmba (talk) 19:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment, just because other articles exist about things of local significance does not mean that this article gets a pass. You may find #5 under Wikipedia:NOT#IINFO of interest. Natalie (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment, I did not see anything under #5 which states that local interests are banned. I doubt that such a rule exists at all, but left my prior answer open in case it did. Regardless, if it does exist, then half of the articles on Wikipedia should arguably be removed. Doing a quick yahoo search, the result is 97,000 reference to "sarah kreager attack". This is not a small, dying news topic. The content and editing may not be in everyone's taste, but it should be improved, not eliminated. Mdlawmba (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. I never said that local interest topics were banned, per se, but it is general practice that events and people who have generally only received news coverage from local outlets do not meet the notability criteria. Search engine results are not in any way evidence of notability, for a variety of reasons. There has been no continuing national or international coverage from actual news outlets: one briefing in the New York Times, no coverage in the Wall Street Journal, one article from the Associated Press reprinted in the Washington Post, no coverage in the Los Angeles Times, no coverage in the Chicago Sun-Times, no coverage on the BBC. The only sources you've added to the article are from a local radio station. Natalie (talk) 00:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment, Okay, then stated another way, neither national nor international news coverage appears to be a criteria. I did not provide all of the citation to the article, as this is not MY article, but citation in many articles tend to be local television media website articles because they tend to beat the newspapers to the punch. Anything I cited can be found in Baltimore and D.C. newspapers and numerous national articles. Mdlawmba (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- I wasn't trying to imply that you are the only person who's added references, but I did notice that you added some references, all of which were from a local radio station. What "numerous national articles" exist? All I have been able to find are single articles that are largely reprinted from the single Associated Press article about the incident, all of which are dated December 7th. Referring again to What Wikipedia is not, "Wikipedia considers the historical notability of persons and events, while keeping in mind the harm our work might cause. Someone or something that has been in the news for a brief period is not necessarily a suitable subject for an article in their own right." This is something that was in the national news for a brief period of time (approximately a day) and has not sustained any coverage since then, nearly a month later. Obviously it has sustained local coverage, but there are numerous crimes that get significant local coverage. That is not an indication of notability. Natalie (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment, Okay, then stated another way, neither national nor international news coverage appears to be a criteria. I did not provide all of the citation to the article, as this is not MY article, but citation in many articles tend to be local television media website articles because they tend to beat the newspapers to the punch. Anything I cited can be found in Baltimore and D.C. newspapers and numerous national articles. Mdlawmba (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. I never said that local interest topics were banned, per se, but it is general practice that events and people who have generally only received news coverage from local outlets do not meet the notability criteria. Search engine results are not in any way evidence of notability, for a variety of reasons. There has been no continuing national or international coverage from actual news outlets: one briefing in the New York Times, no coverage in the Wall Street Journal, one article from the Associated Press reprinted in the Washington Post, no coverage in the Los Angeles Times, no coverage in the Chicago Sun-Times, no coverage on the BBC. The only sources you've added to the article are from a local radio station. Natalie (talk) 00:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment, I did not see anything under #5 which states that local interests are banned. I doubt that such a rule exists at all, but left my prior answer open in case it did. Regardless, if it does exist, then half of the articles on Wikipedia should arguably be removed. Doing a quick yahoo search, the result is 97,000 reference to "sarah kreager attack". This is not a small, dying news topic. The content and editing may not be in everyone's taste, but it should be improved, not eliminated. Mdlawmba (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment, just because other articles exist about things of local significance does not mean that this article gets a pass. You may find #5 under Wikipedia:NOT#IINFO of interest. Natalie (talk) 22:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment from nom:When I proposed this article for deletion, I was never opposed to deleting the information. I do not believe, though, that it should have its own article. If a major fight broke out at a high school, and it shook up the region and was covered by the local media for a month thereafter, the appropriate place to mention it would be in the article about that school, not an article of its own. There have been murders at some malls that are mentioned in the articles about those malls. Besides, the title "Baltimore bus beating" is very non-specific and implies this was the only beating ever on a bus in Baltimore. But there have been other assaults on buses in the Baltimore area in the past and after this one.Sebwite (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merge into MTA Maryland Route 15 under #Incidents on Route 15 buses. --Pwnage8 (talk) 19:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
