Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baldassare Squitti

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus defaults to keep — FireFox ^(talk) _{16:38, 29 August 2006}

[edit] Baldassare Squitti

Non-notable family member of editor who created this article. Two hits on Google, both in Italian. ... Kenosis 20:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. As a member of the Italian parliament, wins on WP:BIO, which considers "members of a national, state or provincial legislature" to be notable. TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs)
  • Truth asked me to look at the official Italian Parliament site (http://www.camera.it/) I went over the whole thing and found niente (nothing). As a last resort, I did a search; results: *Parola ricercata: "Squitti" - Totale voci di menu trovate: 0 (Word searched for: "Squitti" -- Total hits found in the menu (site): 0) •Jim62sch• 21:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Actually, the wording is, "Political figures holding international..." note that "holding" is in the present tense, not in the perfect (as in "who have held"). Is squitti still alive? •Jim62sch• 21:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - TruthbringerToronto beat me to it. Modern means should not be used to establish notability of 19th century people, and a parliament member is certainly notable. --Daniel Olsen 21:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete the two Italian articles mention him only in passing, as an editor of an article. If he is not notable in Italy, why should he be notable here? Obviously there is a severe misunderstanding of how history as a discipline works. Y'see, both general history books and even almanacs tend to focus far more on the recent than on the distant past. In fact, if the (distant) past is considered the base and the present (more accurately recent past) the top we find an inverted pyramid. Is this because fewer notable events happened in the past, or because fewer notable people existed? No, it is because the filter of time has acted to reduce what was once thought of as notable to that which truly is notable.•Jim62sch• 22:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

*Keep per Truthbringer. Jim, this would be a good point to bring up at WP:BIO not on an individual AfD. JoshuaZ 01:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)Delete per Kenosis' translation, with no prejudice against recreation if an actual source can be found. JoshuaZ 01:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment How do you know he was a parliamentarian? Can you read Italian? •Jim62sch• 23:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:BIO. JChap2007 02:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. It is interesting that Baldassarre Squitti's father was born two years before him. Heaven only knows what else is going on here, but something is surely wrong with this picture. Were these guys brothers? I have no way of verifying anything here. ... Kenosis 23:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, especially given that the sources are in Italian, and dollars to donuts I'm the only person here who can read Italian, so, since my translation could be considered OR, how are the rest of you to discern compliance with WP:V and WP:RS? Quite the poser there, eh? •Jim62sch• 23:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment This is ridiculous. The "citation" upon which the claim of political notability is based is to the Vibonese library system ( http://www.vibonese.it/ ). The "citation" appears to have something to do with Italian parliament but is actually an online document from a local library, the reference to "Baldassare Squitti reads (translated): "From 1904 until 1913 comes elected deputy of the district of Monteleone Calabro (put into effect by Vibo Valentia), Baldassarre Squitti, optimal politician legacy to Giolitti." ... Kenosis 01:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• • • Comment Actually, as I understand WP:OR, minor translational matters confirming factual issues are not considered WP:OR. JoshuaZ 01:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment This is completely bogus, the claim of notability is made up with a citation to a meaningless blurb that mentions a local deputy of some kind back in 1904. ... Kenosis 01:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• Delete without prejudice due to lack of WP:V based on the translation provided by Kenosis; no reason not to recreate if a reliable source can be found establishing the claims provided in the article. (As for how he was born two years after his father, as the article claims... I'm not even going to attempt to figure that one out.) --Kinu ^t/_c 04:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. He seems to have been a real parlamentarian and university law professor. Perhaps obscure to most of us, but definitely not bogus. I'm personally not interested enough to rewrite the article, but I'll give some clues for anyone who is. WBIS Online (a biographical, or rather bio-bibliographical, database which gives only very summarized data and references to other publications) has two entries for a person of this name. His full, correctly spelt name and title appears to be "Baldassarre Squitti, barone di Palermiti e Guarino". He is described as "barone; giureconsulto; politico; professore di diritto" in one entry and as "barone; sottosegretario di Stato alle Poste e Telegrafi; professore universitario di diritto" in another (but a reasonable guess is that they refer to the same person). Anyone interested in rewriting the article should check the publications listed by WBIS Online (copied below). up+l+and 07:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment "barone; sottosegretario di Stato alle Poste e Telegrafi; professore universitario di diritto" -- Baron, undersecretary of state for mail and telegraphs, professor of law. "barone; giureconsulto; politico; professore di diritto" -- Baron, giure = pledge, vow; consulto = (maybe) consultant (but I can't translatte the whole thing, cazzarola!); politician, professor of law.

• Amato, Domenico: Cenni biografici d'illustri uomini politici e dei più chiari scienziati, letterati ed artisti contemporanei italiani. - Napoli: Mormile, 1887-1891. - Voll. 2

Translation: Slight biographies of illustrious Italian men of politics and of the more well-known scientists, writers and contemprary artists. •Jim62sch• 10:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Piccolo dizionario dei contemporanei italiani / compilato da Angelo de Gubernatis. - Roma: Forzani, 1895

Translation: Small dictionary of contemporary Italians, compiled by Angelo...•Jim62sch• 10:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Sarti, Telesforo: Il Parlamento italiano nel cinquantenario dello statuto: profili e cenni biografici di tutti i senatori e deputati viventi. - Roma: Tipografia Agostiniana, 1898

Translation: The Italian parliament on the 50th anniversary of the constitution: profiles and slight biographies of all the living senators and deputies •Jim62sch• 10:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Malatesta, Alberto: Ministri, deputati, senatori dal 1848 al 1922. - Milano: Tosi, 1940-1941. - Voll. 3. - (Enciclopedia bio-bibliografica italiana).

Translation -- Ministers, senators and deputies from 1848-1922 •Jim62sch• 10:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Chi è? Annuario biografico italiano: con cenni sommari delle persone più note del parlamento, dell'esercito, dell'armata, della magistratura, del clero, delle pubbliche amministrazioni, dell'insegnamento, della letteratura, dell'arte, dell'industria e del commercio / compilato a cura di Guido Biagi. - Roma: Romagna, 1908

Translation: Who's who? Italiam biographical yearbook: with slight summaries of people of note in the parliament, the army, the navy, of the courts, of the clergy, of public administration, of education, of literature, of art, of industry and of trade -- compiled and edited by Guido Biagi•Jim62sch• 10:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment 2: as for the birthdate of the supposed father, my guess is that the Nicola who was a senator and born 1853 was actually a brother of Baldassarre. This Nicola Squitti is also included in Malatesta's book, listed above. up+l+and 07:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment You guess? Not much evidence for WP:V then, eh? Besides, you'd think that since the article was written by a relative the geneology would be bloody correct! •Jim62sch• 10:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • He has the same baronial title, so he is definitely a relative, whether a brother or more distant. It is quite possible that there is something on the parents or family in one of the listed references, so the answer may not be that difficult to find. I am under no obligation to do anything more than guessing here, as I'm not actually writing the article... :-) up+l+and 13:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I know, I was just being sarcastic.  ;) •Jim62sch• 20:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, now that Nicola is just his brother...Nicola is listed as a Senator in the article. The link provided by squitti says otherwise:

• Professione: Diplomatico (diplomat)
• Carriera: Console generale di I classe (17 marzo 1901) (general council)
• Inviato straordinario e Ministro plenipotenziario di II classe (18 giugno 1911) (special envoy and plenipotentiary)

A lot of problems with this article. •Jim62sch• 21:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Console generale di I classe is more likely Consul general (of the first class), or First-Class Consul General. However, the difference doesn't affect much. TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 21:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Duh, I wrote the wrong thing...I spelled the wrong thing wrong too. My bad. •Jim62sch• 21:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Obviously those with an interest in the late-19th and early 20th Century Italian Parliament will have intense interest in Nicola Squitti, who is the one that's verifiably a member of the Parliament. Where's the verification on Baldassare Squitti? There apparently is a whole database of former parliament members including a page of info on Nicola Squitti; so where is Baldassare on that database? It is, after all, the supposed basis of notability here. ... Kenosis 22:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment -- Actually, there is absolutely zero proof that Nicola was a senator. •Jim62sch• 22:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Well, Nicola Squitti is the one who is said to have actually had a conversation with Mussolini (here). Perhaps that's notable as to Nicola, but not Baldassare. ... Kenosis 22:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment Well, my cousin's uncle's dog pissed on Mussolini's leg, can I do a story on the dog? •Jim62sch• 10:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment BTW, that's not a conversation with Mussolini, it's a eulogy on Squitti delivered on 21 march 1933, and sent to the parliament and signed by Mussolini as head of the government. •Jim62sch• 10:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC) -- Oh. ... Kenosis 21:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.