Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bahá'í criticisms

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was merge with Bahá'í Faith --cesarb 08:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bahá'í criticisms

Its a two anon crusade to make a POV fork from the standard Baha'i pages. In my opinion it should be merged inline with relevant text on articles such as Bahá'í Faith. It is pretty over-blown and emotive, let alone ignoring the religion's apologists, but that can be fixed once a correct location for this text has been found. Tomhab 11:48, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• comment Just noted that both IPs are from Taiwan - home and work? -- Tomhab 11:51, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• merge into an appropriate article, or perhaps rewrite. The article makes some interesting points, such as the apparent contradiction of game theory and the whole unity-of-all-humans business, so it's far more than just a "this religion sucks" diatribe. That said, it's still quite POV, and would be best balanced out with opposing statements. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:38, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
• merge into other articles as it needs lots of attention. It makes a few valid points but reads otherwise as far too much of a POV rant. --Occamy 19:54, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• delete as POV fork, content should only be merged where it can be sourced. Original research doesn't belong into Wikipedia. --Pjacobi 20:12, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
• Merge into Bahá'í Faith. JamesBurns 04:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm Dawud, the guy who created this page. To merge it into "Baha'i Faith" would make that site overly long, no? It's really not possible to cover criticisms of it in less than article length.

On the POV thing, I do hope to be fair to all sides, and of course anybody else who feels like it can join in. As you can see I've just started. I'm not sure if this format is the best--maybe somebody has a better idea...? 218.167.177.148 06:01, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)Dawud

• comment the problem is that it can appear an agressive attempt to criticise the religion in an article form. There is no similar page for any other religion that I've noticed. Criticisms would (in my opinion) be better in line with the text. Besides most of the arguments on the page are rather general against utopian thinking -- Tomhab 10:35, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge anything salvagable with the main Bahai page and delete this page. -CunningLinguist 12:27, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Merge anything salvageable with the main Baha'i page. Other faiths, for example Christianity, do not have their criticisms listed separately. --Idont Havaname 18:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tomhab, the "principles" section is more utopian than the others would be, if I (or anyone else) ever get around to writing them. (Doubtful in view of the visible momentum towards "merge or purge".) These principles are, in the main, the points emphasized by Baha'is when presenting their religion.

Maybe "criticisms" gives the wrong impression. Maybe "Baha'i controversies" would be better? Although that suggests intra-Baha'i discussions, and this is intended to be broader. Dawud 01:18, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Assuming that the form of voting carries on, no information needs be deleted, just merged where relevant into the other pages. I don't like the idea of controversies, because almost all of it is not controversial for Baha'is (which the title would suggest). Just for those who might consider being Baha'is, but find certain beliefs to be challenging. I've been busy at the minute so need a bit of time to re-read it all but a lot of it cuold get put on the main page in a much smaller summary. The Women on the UHJ is the most important one to mention (Baha'is don't really even understand it) and could be done in much more detail on the Universal House of Justice page (as well as a short amount on the main page).

Again this is just my view so needs ratification through a consensus. -- Tomhab 10:57, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think merging with the main page is a good idea. There's simply not enough room. The Women-in-the-House issue does deserve a mention on the UHJ page, sure--but not in this form, it's just not right for that context. Dawud 11:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• comment I view many of the "criticisms" of this page as providing interesting food for thought, though many are not in fact criticisms of the Baha'i faith at all (though they may be positions or theories that contain aspects contradictory to Baha'i belief). It doesn't necessarily make sense to include these on this page. That having been said, deleting the page seems like a bad idea to me. Some parts of the page pertain directly to the Baha'i faith and should not disappear altogether; incorporating these parts into other pages seems to me a recipe for their eventual extinction. One of the Baha'i religion's great strengths is its tolerance of a variety of opinions; I think that properly edited this page has something valuable to offer. -- Louigi 19:10, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for that, Louigi.

Someone suggested turning this into a "Baha'i social principles" page. I am willing, if that would not violate the prohibition against escaping-deletion-through-renaming policy. This means abandoning parts II and III, and adding lots of quotes from Baha'i writings to beef these things up. Comments? Dawud 00:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• comment The page is great! Keep the page as it is! The title, content all are OK. It gives people who want to rant on an opportunity to do it, which keeps them off the main page. People reading the principles are smart enough to notice the utopian nature of the Faith's beliefs, and don't need any of this information in an introductory reading. External criticism of the Faith is something that Abdu'l Baha prayed for! And women were barred from the Guardianship as well as the House of Justice! More fuel for your fire. Cunado19 00:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.