Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ba Sing Se (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 19:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ba Sing Se

Ba Sing Se (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

I nominated this article for deletion before. In the nomination, a user suggested being bold and merging the article. However, the merge was reverted. I think this article should be deleted (or at least redirected) since the information in the article is simply encyclopedic. The information in the article that is referenced is referenced to the show (with one or two exceptions), and a lot of the information could be speculation. — Parent5446 ^{(t n c k e l)} 03:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)*

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. —— Parent5446 ^{(t n c k e l)} 04:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• Merge, anything sourced and relevant to wherever appropiate (probably here) then delete. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• Keep-First off, contrary to what's been claimed in this nomination, the nominator did NOT merge this article, but simply redirected it. That's not the same thing, and calling it a merge is misrepresentation of what took place. Now then, most of the information is sourced or can be. This is a major fictional topic, with too much detail to cover in a parent article. I'd also note that there was a discussion by the relevant wikiproject prior to this article's creation that formed a consensus to do so. As a note, though, if we do decide to merge it, the proper article would be "Earth Kingdom", not "Avatar: The Last Airbender".--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• How is this topic major? It could be considered that the city itself is a major landmark in the show's fictional universe, but the information presented in the article is practically useless. For instance, do we really need to document all of the locations in the city? Do we really need to describe its government? Remember to keep in mind that a lot of this information is probably described in the many plot summaries throuhout the Avatar articles, as well as the specific Ba Sing Se paragraph in the Earth Kingdom article. If we trim the useless information, we could easily merge the article into Earth Kingdom (I do apologize for being misleading by saying I merged the article. In addition, I do agree that if merged it should be merged into Earth Kingdom and not Avatar: The Last Airbender — Parent5446 ^{(t n c k e l)} 22:26, 30

• I don't agree with most of what you've labeled "useless". Ba Sing Se is the setting for half a season, give or take, worth of episodes. Details about it are plot significant. Things like its government and so forth are major plot catalysts, not just random tidbits.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Again, the city was an important setting. The government did have an important plot effect on the show. But do we really need a detailed explanation of the government, or could we suffice with one paragraph on the government? And what about the rest of the article? Is the three-ring arrangement of the city so important that it needs to be explained in its own section (including a whole paragraph describing the area outside Ba Sing Se)? Do we need to repeat why Ba Sing Se fell? Do we need a detailed description of the King's Palace and who was allowed in the palace and how the palace contained "numerous ceremonial temples, quarters to house the Kings servants, intricate gardens, and the King's menagerie of rare, exotic animals"? As for sourcing, it would be good if you could tell me how we could source the whole inspiration paragraph of the article, which seems more like just a comparison between the city and real-life structure (instead of describing how the structures "inspired", hence the section name, the creators of the show to make this city). This city might be is important to the show, but there is no need to devote a two thousand word article to the topic, when a basic overview and description would suffice. — Parent5446 ^{(t n c k e l)} 23:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete No secondary sources to establish notability or provide real world context. I am a aware that there is a single secondary source that has real world context, but it concerns Avatar as a whole, not Ba Sing Se. If the merge was never performed, then deleting is allowed. However, deletion cannot be performed after a merge for copyright reasons. Jay32183 (talk) 05:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
• Weak keep Article seems sourced (though mostly primary sources) and seems to meet WP:V quite nicely. WP:N is harder, as it's a call as to if this breakout article is appropriate given the notability of the topic. I'm not sure, but suspect it might be. Hobit (talk) 13:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
  • What do you mean by "sourced"? There are only 10 sources (7 being from the show) and most of the article is only sourced to number three. In addition, there is a whole section that is unsourced. — Parent5446 ^{(t n c k e l)} 14:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
    • So? Not every section _needs_ sourcing to be a reasonable, or even good, article. See Singer, Composer, etc. In fact most articles are that way. I hit "random" 3 times in a row, and the first three were http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onikan_Stadium, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Poe, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunniside%2C_Sunderland. Not a whole lot of sourcing going on there, nor do they really need in-line sourcing as the articles are largely non-controversial. Certainly better sourcing would be better, but the article is well past acceptably sourced as it is. Hobit (talk) 03:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Actually, the article is nowhere near acceptably sourced. Other articles being poorly sourced is not a reason to save this article. The article doesn't have any secondary sources that discuss the subject. To have a Wikipedia article a subject must have "significant coverage in multiple, reliable, secondary sources independent of the topic". Ba Sing Se does not have that. Notability is not a matter of opinion. There are secondary sources or there aren't. The problem with this article isn't inline citation, it's missing quality sources. There's plot and stuff that is only tangentially related. There needs to be sources for real world context, not content. That is, the article needs to present "Ba Sing Se" from the perspective of the real world, with sources for that. Adding real world info that doesn't actually matter to the understanding of "Ba Sing Se" doesn't help, no matter how good those sources are. Jay32183 (talk) 06:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
        • That's an interesting opinion, but I don't think we are restricted to using a source that covers "real world material". Certainly WP:PLOT doesn't provide any such restriction. As I said, I don't know enough about this topic (Airbender) to have a strong opinion, but I do think you are mistaken about what's needed here. Hobit (talk) 21:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
          • Actually, WP:PLOT does make such a restriction. Articles can't contain only plot. Although this article does contain more than plot, that information is not specific to this topic, so it doesn't justify an article. There needs to be real world information about Ba Sing Se, such as development and reception, to justify a Wikipedia article. There is a difference between Wikipedia and an Avatar fan wiki. You're of course welcome to contribute to both, but you should keep the two straight. Jay32183 (talk) 23:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
            • Dude. #1 I know nothing about Avatar other than seeing it on TV as I flip past it. #2 My comment was that from WP:V's viewpoint this thing is reasonable sourced. You don't need a cite for every factual statement if that statement is non-controversial Hobit (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Well, I guess you are right. Either way, this article is still not notable enough. — Parent5446 ^{(t n c k e l)} 12:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

_{---- One of the appropriate wikiprojects has been notified of this AfD Hobit (talk) 15:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)}

• Weak merge as its WikiProject has done little to save it during this AfD, which causes me to think that they do not care about this article, which may be able to establish notability if it tries. –thedemonhog talk • edits

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.