Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BAO Team (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. AmiDaniel (talk) 03:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BAO Team (2nd nomination)

BAO Team (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log|1st AFD)
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Article about a Filipino hacking group. While the first nomination ended in a withdrawn nomination, I have doubts this group actually meets the notability requirements WP:ORG. Of the articles, only two are from reliable sources, Time-Asia, and those happen to focus on a person that just so happens to be a member of this group, rather than about the group itself. Thus, the article still lacks reliable sources, failing WP:ATT. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 18:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Strong Delete just two words: vandalism and pointless DCUnitedFan2011 16:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Hacking again? This is already nominated by one of the administrators as a Start-class article, what's the difference of this article with Razor 1911, Fairlight(group) and Kalisto, these group are all unverifiable. neochaosX please check the other links that are related with this group. Yunaffx 00:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment They are not aware of fan translation or warez groups, groups like these are legible for wikipedia. This is already the 3rd nomination, the 2nd one realized that everything was appropriate. Wikipedia must form localize groups in every country to verify such claims. DCunitedfan, please search for other hacking and warez groups here in Wiki, so you can see other 'pointless' stuffs. For NeochaosX, please read all the links related with this article. Can you please point out the sections that you think inappropriate. btw this article is nominated for start-class by an administrator that written/edits about 100,000 articles, he's better than us, regulars.

read the details carefully http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:BAO_Team

like this one...

  • zephyr2k admits that she is "tey" and she's a chatter before with the hackers and carders in IRC. JL99 08:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Guys, read my nomination again. I'm saying this group doesn't meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines because there's no non-trivial (read: more than just a single mention in an aritcle about someone) coverage of the group in reliable sources. If you can show to me that this group has been the subject of that kind of coverage, I'll rethink the nomination. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 02:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What is notable for you? Please check the external links again. Your notability standards may be too high than wikipedia. *Leader of the group, kamuixtv. Posted a comment regarding Edge-9. http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=177477. JL99 08:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 05:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

For your consideration. The notability is limited for reverse-engineering groups and cannot be compared with major companies.

is also a screenshot of EMIT, if you are not convinced enough download the rom here http://www.geocities.com/drajero/baoimage.htm Stormworld http://us.geocities.com/storm_reaver.geo/Dec1997.htm is also a translation news site in 1997.

  • Programs/OS used and still exist like Ezjap, pic2exe and batugan that can be found/download here

http://www.geocities.com/drajero/baoimage.htm

Minor details

Vincent Ternida is an employee of ABS-CBN Foreign Programs Acquisition Department from 2003 to 2006, he lead the translation of various anime shows to Tagalog. Anime is a foreign show, so the job belongs to them. The only way confirm this is by asking his friends on Friendster and his blog sometime in 2004. http://nacchisento.livejournal.com/2004/12/13/

Ernie Baron's Knowledge Power was a defunct ABS-CBN educational show, the episode regarding "carding" is available hopefully at their vidoe archieves, at this moment I'm looking for a Filipino Wikipedian that may provide an information regarding this matter.

EDIT: Edge-9 DVD copy protection is not commercially available yet. But when kamuixtv posted screenshots, the DVD community was threatened and criticized his work. He is open for demonstration at the expense of those who are interested. Afaik, Future products is also accepted here in wiki (ex. Protein-coated_disc ). Asian-Media is just the another name of BAO Team. Yunaffx 22:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Geez for the record, 3rd time AfD. Wait, Ezjap belongs to Software Development, still not notable enough? Dark AleX, psp hacker...another reverse-engineering article. Kamuixtv 14:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment It doesn't matter what individual members have done; this is about the notability of the group here; what individual members have done do not make the group notable by association. Additionally, do you have any reliable sources to prove all of this? Personal and community websites and blogs are not reliable sources; is there any coverage of this group and its activities in major Phillipine or Asian media outlets? I'm still not seeing these sources, which means this article still fails WP:ATT. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 22:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

- Those anime translations for ABS-CBN or Hero TV (TV station and cable TV), development of edge-9, game translation and ezjap are all GROUP work with their respective project leader. Cdfreaks is no longer a community website, it's run by Rank One. http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/DVD-Edge9-Copy-Protection.html, http://www.megalab.it/news.php?id=1105 (Italian) Yunaffx 22:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Do you have reliable sources to prove that it's their work, then? Again, all those websites you posted are not reliable. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 22:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

- Then delete every reverse-engineering related articles here in wiki, because most of them rely on community websites like http://www.nforce.nl EDIT: Please scrutenize the ff. articles RPGe_(translation_group), DeJap_Translations, Fan_translation, ROM_hacking because most of them heavily-rely on community news-based portals. Yunaffx 01:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Yuna, All I can say is they are the same with this article but this is not limited to romhacking or fan translation. For neochaosX: Vincent Ternida's scope of work is not only for anime. When you watch a certain Korean or Mexican drama in ABS-CBN, you can see his name in the ending credits. Can you use that as a proof of notability? JL99 02:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Neutral I note that the only two real references are based upon interviews with a member whom the group disowns in the article. I have removed the list of real names & the photos of the group under BLP, and some obviously copyvio pictures. I would also not be comfortable with the existing articles under real names mentioned here or in the previous AfD without evidence that the subjects wanted to be so identified. DGG 14:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

- DGG, you deleted the screenshot of EMIT in Tagalog? Yunaffx 21:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete simply not enough independent sources for me. Guy (Help!) 23:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Strond delete, and if anyone could help it, can this please be made into a speedy delete? Notability not established even in mainstream or popular Philippine culture. Just because someone affiliated with this group is an employee of ABS-CBN does not add to the notability of the group (in other words, it's not enough). In addition, a great majority of the "references" cited are actually self-published material and cannot be verified outside of these "references". Wikipedia is not, among other things, a fan site, a hobby site or an extension of your warez group's website. This is an encyclopedia, not a social networking site. --- Tito Pao 08:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

- Tito Pao. Did you read all that I posted? This article can be compared to the following articles: RPGe_(translation_group) DeJap_Translations Fan_translation ROM_hacking Dark AleX

I disagree with the term "self-published". From what I've discussed their "reliable" sources (including this article) are from their own community-based portals. Vincent Ternida and the new members, Yaoi Dudes is only a reference and can establish it's own notability when it's needed. It seems reverse-engineering articles are not welcome for you. You can freely put an AfD template on the mentioned articles. This I like to see. This article is not a warez group. try the ff. Razor 1911, Fairlight_(group) and Kalisto. Tito Pao, can you please read from the top? It seems that I re-written all the stuff that I posted. Philippine popular culture is ignorant, "denial" or skeptic when it comes to "local" hacking, that is why it is here to inform users. edit: We should ask the opinion of Jacoplane Yunaffx 13:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

titopao, please don't take this as a personal attack, you are no expert nor express interest on video games and anime based from your userpage. BAO team is also a video game article and nominated for start-class. There are no 'experts' here not unlike in citizendium. I have seen how you "butchered" local voice actors. It looks like you are inconsiderate and too vigilant plus your knowledge about the topic is maybe less than zero. If you ask some people from the Philippine anime community they might say positive things about the dubbers. See Laura_Bailey_(voice_actress) JL99 15:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yunafffx and JL99, community-based portals are considered as self-published materials just like blogs and forums ("portal" is just another word for forum, btw), so unless the WP community has changed its position, I will stand by my opinion that it's not suitable a reference on any article. I've removed blogs and forums on many artists' articles and has successfully nominated articles about, among others, a cosplayer's biography (Alodia Almira Gosengfiao), a fan site (Erik Santos Friends Online), a community choir and a couple of Cebu-based bands for this reason. Please see also my comments at the Tambayan regional portal for more on this information. And if you're having a problem with me being "inconsiderate" and "too vigilant" "butchering" other voice actors' articles, wait until you've seen other editors who are much, much more "vigilant" and "inconsiderate" than I (they are, in fact, editors who I respect highly). Anyway, this AfD is not about me and my editing abilities on Wikipedia, but on estalishing the notability of the article (please read the guidelines for more information). In the courtroom, the case is not about the witnesses and the lawyer's reputation, but the facts and evidence that counts; if the evidence is weak, the case will fall, so you'll need strong evidence to build up your case. This is how I see this and other AfDs---you'll need to justify why we should keep an article given WP's guidelines. Just because you are in the know of the group and/or are in one way or another involved with it does not give enough impetus in giving this article a "Keep"; articles on Wikipedia are made much more of other stuff, and there are guidelines for that. In the end, if the BAO team's article can't stand the criteria that were set by the WP community for groups, corporations and organizations, then this one must go. --- Tito Pao 08:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

But do you agree that this article has the same level with the articles that I presented above? The way they cite their sources are very much the same. btw correction, community-NEWS portal is very much different from blogs. community-news portals like: Cdfreaks http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/DVD-Edge9-Copy-Protection.html http://www.megalab.it/news.php?id=1105 http://www.nforce.nl - warez news http://us.geocities.com/storm_reaver.geo/Dec1997.htm - fan translation news http://rpgd.emulationworld.com/ (inactive but they have archieves) and if you read other fan trasnlation articles they always refer to EMUNews. The blog of Vincent Ternida (project leader of all anime translation of the group, Yaoi Dudes (part of BAO) for ABS-CBN/Hero) proves only that he WAS an employee of ABS-CBN. And it is only use as a reference. Yunaffx 09:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank You for your comment in WP:Tambayan but it is parallel to the article. Did you know the Philippines belongs to the top credit card frauders in the world? In 1999 to early 2000's, major online stores like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Yahoo Acutions, Ebay and a lot more blacklisted the Philippines. If you have a credit card try to online shop now :) That is why the Time-Asia article is cited along the names Alvin Veroy (already deleted) Aka eyestrain, Mark Cacho aka Maku-kurei who even tried to delete his name on this article using his very own WP nick kurenai jiku or in short kurei from the anime flame of recca (I think he's trying to be a comedian by doing that stupid act.), badsektor and of course, Evilhero. See. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:BAO_Team Yunaffx 09:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Although a portal is not a blog, it may still be considered as self-published material because anyone can sign up for an account and post content (assuming that the portal's admins provided enough privileges to its users) which, at its very basic, can be verified only by the poster unless proven otherwise. I can sign up on the CDFreaks.com site and post my own article and use this as "reference" on WP---and this is exactly the kind of situation that is frowned upon on WP. (I won't go over with the rest of the sites you mentioned for the same reason.)
The community has held for quite some time that "Communities, message boards and blogs are generally not notable", and since the BAO Team appears to be something that a group of classmates made up (but apparently carried on with after school), this puts the burden on you and other interested editors in establishing that this article is about something that many (if not all) readers from the Philippines and elsewhere would want to look up in an encyclopedia, something that a serious journalist would write about for a full-featured article (and not just a mere mention---don't get me started with the Time magazine interview again because they do make mention of other people and place names, not all of them notable...do you think if someone wrote a Letter to the Editor and it get published, the writer becomes instantly "notable"?). This article needs more reliable sources (see this page for examples).
I tried looking up for "BAO Team" on various search engines and newspaper archives and have failed to find other independent sources that would verify what's written on the article (most of the hits turn up to be Chinese corporations). This is why, as you've mentioned, the Alvin Veroy article was deleted. Convince me why this one shouldn't be.
And, no, I don't have a credit card because I hate borrowing from other people or buying from credit. I don't trust hackers because I think like one, although it's not like what people would normally think (I didn't say I am one). --- Tito Pao 13:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Cdfreaks doesn't work that way, you can cite something and they will be the one (cdfrekas editors) to write the news. Megalabs is also a news site. You didn't answer my question regarding the similarity with other fan translation articles. I found out that some console emulator articles refers similarity with this article Zsnes, PSX_emulator, French-Bread (DNML-like), most of them rely on emulation/fan translation or doujin-soft communities. Yunaffx 23:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"you can cite something and they will be the one (cdfrekas editors) to write the news." That exactly is why I consider it as self-published. How transparent is this website's editorial and content moderation policies? This site is referenced only on other blogs, portals, forums and blog/RSS aggregator sites, but no significant mention of this website appears on other, more established organizations, academic institutions or news agencies. And this discussion is about the BAO team, not the other sites. Besides, the Zsnes and PSX_emulator articles are about open source projects, not about a group of classmates who decided to form their own hacking team. --- Tito Pao 04:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and salt, orgs such as these are nonnotable by default unless they wreck havoc ILOVEYOU style. --Howard the Duck 16:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

tito pao, I'm convinced that Razor 1911 and Fairlight_(group)'s history was a WP:MADEUP. Who the heck is Doctorno and Sector9 anyway. btw the your definition of "notable" is very massive, what if it's only limited in Asia or the Philipppines. Open-source? DNML is also an open-source, you can edit the games that created by others. CDfreaks only covers Edge-9. At first they maybe a group of classmates but later formed as a internet group that is why there's a hacking, translation and DNML sub-groups. Howard the Duck, enough of the flaws read the FACTS. I thought AfD last only for 5 days? Yunaffx 22:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact is this is unnotable, even in the Philippines (I reside in the Philippines my whole life, FYI). If this makes it to the mainstream newspapers then this'll have half a chance. As for AFD, since there is a lengthly discussion about the matter, it also means there'll be a lenghtly time before this is settled, not to mention the backlog of admins around here... --Howard the Duck 00:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Howard makes a good point in the BAO Team needing a reference on a newspaper to bolster the notability claim, so I won't add anything to that. With regard to other teams, this AfD discussion is about the BAO Team, so I prefer to limit my discussion on this article alone. If you feel that Razor 1911 and Fairlight_(group) should also have been nominated for an AfD, then do so. Or better yet, I will nominate them myself once this AfD discussion has been decided upon by an admin. With regard to the 5-day period, this Afd was relisted (in case you've missed the fine print, it says "Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached") because the admin who worked on the previous nomination thought that there was not enough votes and comments to merit a consensus. This is not the only time that it happened on Wikipedia (to the best of my knowledge, it's the 4th time I've seen this in an AfD that I participated in), and it will likely happen again in the future if no consensus can be reached. --- Tito Pao 12:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. The article reads like an Uncyclopedia article, complete with gratuitous Photoshopped clip art and penis jokes. Uncyclopedia is thataway. → If there's information on a Filipino cracking group hiding in there somewhere, it's news to me. --Quuxplusone 08:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.