Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/B.A.P.!! (Basque band)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, but leaning towards keep - in particular, it has to be noted that being in a foreign language does not have any bearing on a source's credibility, and that if a subject merits an article in one language Wikipedia it generally merits one in all of them. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 13:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] B.A.P.!! (Basque band)

Notability not asserted...no sources...no google hits...small useful content can be merged to Negu Gorriak. Annasweden 19:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, appears to fail WP:BAND. No sources for the sort-of claim to notability "influential in the Basque musical scene", either. Sandstein 21:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC) Changing to weak keep per Husond and BigHaz below. Sandstein 16:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Many references about this hardcore band on Spanish and Basque music websites, such as this or this. RadioEuskadi plays their songs, meaning that at least in the Basque Country they are popular.--Húsönd 21:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Well... what specific criterion of WP:BAND do they meet, and are there WP:RS for it? Sandstein 21:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, the notability of this band is likely focused in the Basque Country, which is not an independent nation. The criteria for national notability (charts, etc.) thus may not be met here. However, the Basques could be considered a specific ethnic, cultural and national entity (and in this case notability within the Basque Country could suffice to meet WP:BAND). Otherwise all bands singing in Basque would become inherently non-notable just because they are not notable Spain-wide. I think that this perspective should be debated. --Húsönd 22:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

OK: Assuming, arguendo, we treat the Basque Country as a country for the purposes of WP:BAND, what specific criterion of WP:BAND do they meet, and are there WP:RS for it? Sandstein 22:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not sourced, but the article claims that members of the band went on to play with a series of other bands, the first one of which appears to be relatively notable. Additionally, an argument could be made that the band is representative of a particular regional scene (that of the Basque Country). That said, the lack of sources for either claim is problematic, and I think whatever comes up is going to be in Basque. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because the article claims something means nothing without sources. In addition the links provided by Husond are not in English, so maybe this article belongs in the Spanish wikipedia but certainly not here. It simply must produce sources. If no one is interested in this article enough to find reasonable sources, it should be deleted. i can see its been a redlink on the disambig page for a long time and no one has stepped up to state its case for many months. the logical thing is to merge its content into Negu Gorriak. Annasweden 23:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried to scavenge the Basque Wikipedia but this was all I could find. I'll try to find some English sources on the web. In case of Transwiki, the Basque Wikipedia is more suitable than the Spanish one anyway.--Húsönd 00:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this website has a small description of "B.A.P.!!". Apart from that, only scattered mentions throughout the web. Anyway, this band conforms to WP:BAND on the grounds of the criterium that stipulates that a band is notable if it "contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable". Since this drummer Mikel Abrego later joined Negu Gorriak (which many websites regard as "with no doubt the most important rock band of the 90s in the Basque Country"), then I guess we need not delete this article. :-) --Húsönd 00:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

That would do it for notability, but I still see no WP:RS: this Mikel Abrego isn't mentioned in either of the band articles or in the external link you provided, which - as a random private website - is a bit dubious in terms of WP:RS anyway; plus the BAP article still has zero external links. Sandstein 06:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, most websites are private, I think that references on them should only be discredited when they're clearly spammy. But in this EuskalRock website I provided they write about "the History of Basque Punk Rock", so I think that the information contained therein is prefectly acceptable and conforming to WP:RS. Any search for "Mikel Abrego"+"B.A.P."+"Negu Gorriak" on Google retrieves hundreds of references that confirm that Mikel Abrego joined notable band Negu Gorriak, this is virtually impossible to contest. Even the Galician Wikipedia confirms it.--Húsönd 14:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

All right, as per BigHaz below, they probably just make the cut. Changing my vote. Sandstein 16:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Whether basque is a country or not, if this dissolved band ex-members is notable, this band should be noted too.Feureau 22:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No notability here. merge idea is OK. Foreign language google hits may support as Basque version. Cydperez 05:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I just created it! Let the article grow, please. What's the point of deleting articles on relevant bands? Need sources? Husond has provided some. Edit and improve but don't sabotage others' work. --Sugaar 09:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand the purpose of this discussion. Deleting noncompliant pages is a necessary function of Wikipedia administration. This is not about you personally. Please read WP:DP, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Thank you. Sandstein 10:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem to drop many WP articles that are irrelevant. What has to do Assume Good Faih and No Personal Attacks in this discussion? The only relevant page you mentioned is Deletion Policy and the article does not meet the criteria there: it's not vanity nor publicity article but one on cultural history. In fact the article has no relation with WP:NOT, where the policies for deletion direct too. So I understand that you are being very subjective here.

WP:MUSIC says:

Has had a charted hit on any national music chart, in at least one large or medium-sized country.

Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country,[1] reported in notable and verifiable sources.[2]

Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable...

Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city...

B.A.P.! fulfills more or less all those criteria and the only problem is about online sources, that are scarce but do exist (see above). It's not one of those groups that appear now and vanish tomorrow. It's surely one of the most influential bands of the Basque scene, particularly as avantguard of hardcore music (that's why they went largely ignored before the 90s).

I insist that the very nomination for deletion makes no sense. I insist: Keep it and improve it if deemed necessary. --Sugaar 12:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep. Having followed the debate, I'm willing to put my neck on the line and say that the band seems to just sneak over the line as far as notability is concerned, given what Husond has tirelessly located. It's not much, but it just does it for me. Arguing that non-English sources are somehow less than English ones is a nonce argument, since a Basque rock group is always going to generate more information in Basque (and probably in Spanish) than in English. Yes, I'd love to see more sources in English too, but I'm also prepared to accept any sources. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• strong delete. The notability simply isn't existent. The one link given is out of date and has only a cursory mention fo the group. Seems like a vanity article. Cdcdoc 19:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You should carefully review the discussion before presenting such a deviant position. The notability is not only existent as it is also confirmed with sources conforming to WP:BAND and WP:RS. I can't grasp your reasoning for "the one (!) link given is out of date". And no, it is not a vanity article.--Húsönd 20:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The article's standing is not improved by Husond's personal attacks on those who speak for deletion. I have read the record and i object to my views being termed "deviant". The article's subject is clearly not notable; in fact, the article text makes no assertion of natability. In addition i dont find one google hit in english on this subject. If you read the one link given in the article you will find a brief reference to BAP somewhat far down in the text, and the implication is that the website thinks the band exists, when it is defunct. Thus the source is proven to be not only out of date but inaccurate; moreover, this source doesnt qualify as a reliable source per wikipedia standards. Upon re-reading the article the word "vanity" calls out. Cdcdoc 02:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do not deem my objection to your objections as "personal attacks". I have a strict policy against personal attacks and I don't think that your accusation is even close to plausible. In order to find Google hits related to this band you must narrow your search by adding related words such as band/basque/euskal/etc. That will provide you with a vast array of results. The fact that the band is defunct does not strip it (nor any other band) from notability. Once again I recommend that you carefully read the discussion and realize that the band is notable at least for the fact that one of its members later joined a notable band (as per WP:BAND).--Húsönd 03:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL - So you are somehow calling me vane (by arguing that my work is an act of vanity, like if I had anything to do with BAP! apart of having enjoyed their music) and you don't tolerate that Husönd considers your opinions deviant (I think he meant dissident, but anyhow). As long as we a re talking about each other opinions or actions there are no personal attacks. We are pondering not each other's essential qualities but our respective acts. If you say that something I've said is false, you are not necessarily calling me a liar, you are just saying that I've comitted an error. If You think my stub is "vane", I hope that you are not calling me that, just this specific act. If I wrote that Annasweden's decission of submitting the article for deletion was capricious and felt my effort sabotaged, I'm not implying that she is a capricious person or a saboteur.

Let's stay cool and accept the criticisms to our actions as what they are opinions, and opinions not on ourselves but on some of our acts. That's all.

(And, yes, the online sources are obsolete. That's a pity but I still don't think it justifies the deletion. I could create a page in my geocities site on them... but that would be really an act of vanity. So I won't). --Sugaar 21:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.