Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Atlanta Boy Band

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. --Coredesat 05:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atlanta Boy Band

Atlanta Boy Band (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

If true and sourced, their claims would likely make them notable, but I could find little on google about this band, much less reliable sources for their existence much less their tv appearances and affiliation with The Prince's Trust. A possible hoax? Carlossuarez46 03:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

** The Atlanta Boy Band page is not an hoax, this page has been an entry for a period in Wikpideia without question, previously under the name Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band.

  • delete- dunno bout hoax, but serious COI and POV issues for starters, and unref. Single purpose account.JJJ999 03:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
    • You state serious statements have been made, all can be verified, it is serious the comments you have made to the information published on the Atlanta Boy Band page not being truthful - We hope that you will accept it is the truth.

...........................

Reply on behalf of the Members of Atlanta and The Groups Manager:

All information can be fully verified and we are under advice that the statements made accusing these statements not to be true are and an attack on the personal character of the Manager and Members of the Group Atlanta.

The MD/Station Director of Radio City in the UK can confirm all statements made. Video evidence is available of all TV appearances, cuttings of all magazine appearances are also kept. During the early days of Atlanta the Internet was not then widely used and again "under advice" we are informed that Internet research is not acceptable as a only source in law.

We trust after the ATLANTA page has been up for quite a period of time here on Wikipedia (it used to be listed as Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band), also the same on myspace, that Wikipedia will not agree to these two requests to delete. Also we hope that persons who have made accusations will look at our myspace and please withdraw their statements in a conciliatory way, thanks.

Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 12:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)John B Sheffield —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs) 12:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete unless sources are provided before the end of this AfD discussion. And block the article's creator for the veiled legal threat above and the more explicit one here if they aren't retracted posthaste. Deor 13:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete due to lack of reliable sources. I would point out that in the years since 1997, some publications have posted archives of articles published before 1997. Thus, whether any press coverage of this band appeared online at the time, it could have been republished online since then. Due to the fact that the band's name is a well-known city as well as the name of a different musical group, I am not going to try to Google them. Rather, the burden of proof is on the supporters of this article to provide evidence. (In the unlikely event this article is kept, it should be moved to something like Atlanta (boy band).) --Metropolitan90 13:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
A Google News search for Atlanta +"boy band" +Liverpool gets zero hits. Deor 14:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete if the notable claims can be verified and referenced, I could see keeping this article (albeit in incredibly bad shape as far as an article goes). If references can be provided (which I could not find on Google), I would change my opinion. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 16:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no problems in withdrawing any "legal threat" - but you have to please put yourself in the position and how it can feel, when you are accused of telling "lies" on a public website, when it is completely the truth, especially when you have a professional reputation in commercial radio and music management all you life since leaving school.

JBS Management can be found on Google, if you have access to Music Directories (which all libraries hold) you will also see the entry lists Atlanta as an artist managed. Google Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band on Google, will bring up my own myspace page (John B) which has reference to Atlanta. Google Kainam on Google and you will see the website that GARY MAHONEY is lead vocalist in now, Gary was lead singer of ATLANTA - on the ATLANTA myspace page you will find a track that Gary both wrote and was recorded by the Group. If you check out the Number One Classical Album by Russell Watson, "One Voice" you will see the track that Gary Mahoney wrote and featured on the album and as a single, they writers are Mahoney/Gordon/Watson - A Gordon was the track and album producer, Russell Watson did the Italian translation. I hope everyone can now all agree if this was a hoax or lies, it has been well planned.

The photo used here on Wikipedia shows ATLANTA on the CBBC BIG BASH at Birmingham NEC, on the Atlanta myspace page, the front page photograph shows the same members of the group with KEY 103 the radio station for Manchester and the North West. We have video recorded from Granada TV (also broadcast on LWT) the documentary on the group and all magazine cuttings, unfortunately teen magazine such as MIZZ don't keep a archive on the Internet.

  • Comment - I don't think you are reading the comments being made about this article or the annotations made within the article. You need to provide verifiable, secondary sources for the claims that are made. If the band appeared in magazines, cite the magazines, TV shows, books, radio programs etc. just like you'd do in any good article. They do not all have to be from websites. Look here for some information that may be helpful to you. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 17:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Keep in mind that what many Wikipedia editors will be looking for is specific citations -- which would include not just the publication name, but the date of the article, the title of the article, the author's name, and the page number. This will make verification of your sources much easier. Please keep in mind that this discussion is supposed to last five days, but the earlier you start producing such citations, the more likely it is that people will start recommending "keep" instead of "delete". Also, if you have no problem withdrawing your legal threats, then please go ahead and withdraw them by deleting those threats or striking the threats out. --Metropolitan90 04:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It is pleasing to see that one person is willing to put forward a solution which is appreciated, that the name be changed to Atlanta (Boy Band) which is most sensible and acceptable.

In association with members of the group who first worked on this page we have done everything possible to allay fears of lies and deceit that we have been accused of -if every entry on Wikipedia was put to so much investigation it would be a much smaller base. We hope this matter can be satisfactory be brought to a conclusion for both sides, we Gary Mahoney, Denny Mahoney, Jamie Greaves, Neil Haskins and Manager John B Sheffield would never do anything to mislead or upset anyone.

Many Thanks John B Sheffield Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 16:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment generally speaking self promoting websites and mySpace sites are not good sources for references. If you have any newspaper, radio or TV websites that can be referenced in your article, it would help. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 17:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

We would like to say thanks for your contributions, The Liverpool Echo and The Daily Post backed and supported the group from day one, with many photographs and articles, but Internet archives do not seem to go back so far or cover everything published it is the same with teen magazines, they only keep current details. Radio Stations on the web don't even keep such information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs) 17:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment Look... if you're not going to put forth the effort to reference the accomplishments of the band to substantiate notability which is required for this article to stay, it is going to get deleted. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 17:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unless independent, reliable sources showing notability are provided. Nuttah68 17:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

We have never claimed "notability" - just an unsigned group that achieved a lot - which many bands/groups of the time didn't, this we feel says a lot about the hard work put in, we travelled 93,000 miles in the UK, this was the time before instant success of such as "X Factor" - We have given an independent source the Managing Director Radio City, one of the UK's top five radio stations. I would gladly welcome anyone who can offer Proof that anything said is lies or untruth? - Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 17:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)JBS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs)

Comment Notability for Bands is defined here. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 17:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I am doing everything physically possible, but it is a Friday evening, offices and contacts are now closed until Monday, I will endeavour to find information to substantiate our rightful claims. If after this page has been up for so long it is taken down so quickly it will be a sad reflection on WIKIPEDIA, also that the few complaints received have done this without being patient. Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 17:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)JBS

  • Comment. Verifiable notability through independent reliable sources is a basic requirement of Wikipedia. Whether you claim notability or not, you must show it for the article to stay. Claims of 'x will back us up' are of no use. Nuttah68 17:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. And please drop the stuff about this article's having "been up for so long." You created the article three days ago. The only thing that existed previously was the version on your user page. Deor 18:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - the user page has only been up for a month or so as well. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 18:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, I felt the "user" page had been up for much longer than a month, yes it is fully correct the Atlanta Boy Band page has only been up for a few days. When you are new to Wikipedia, it is a lot to take in and helpful advice/help will always be appreciated. I would like the page to be as suggested Atlanta (Boy Band) Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 06:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)JBS

We have all the published evidence to prove any claims, just because they are not on the internet does not make them not truthful, in fact the internet is not accepted as fully truthful. If every entry on WIKIPEDIA was questioned in this way as we have not many would still be published on the site. Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 17:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)JBS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs)

  • Comment. This is not a court of law, it is Wikipedia. Numerous people have now pointed you in the direction of the inclusion criteria of Wikipedia and those are what the article needs to meet. As for the other argument, see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Nuttah68 17:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

As I have stated clearly above we are doing everything physically possible and we will Fully Substantiate all claims/statement we have made. Wikipedia is as you state not a court of law, but I also hope and trust that it is not a place trying to drive away people who have worked hard being allowed to state their achievements, none of us would like to see a kangaroo court culture, hounding me off and ATLANTA when all we have done is state the truth and nothing but the truth! - sorry but I am going to have to call it a day for now, I have worked on this non stop for many hours now - I hope WIKIPDEIA will understand Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 17:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC) JBS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs)

Delete per every nom above. Also, I'd like to mention, if you do believe there were reliable sources available at one point in history on the internet, try http://www.archive.org/. It has archives going back to 1996. I don't know how reliable anything found in this would be (Eg, not sure if anything found could be classed as a source), but it might help. ARendedWinter 18:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


I had the pleasure of being a member of the group, Anyone with a problem over authenticity can check out the following facebook groups - 'bring back the 90s boybands' and 'craving 90s boybands' were ATLANTA are not only mentioned but also Photographed. I admit this isnt HARD SOLID EVIDENCE blah, blah blah,, but hey we were not signed. If you can be bothered to stop trawling Web based Encyclopedia sites like Wikipedia looking for 'hoaxers and jokers' then contact Mizz Magazine themselves 01892 500 100 and mention our affiliations with them between 1994-1996 on their teenage based National Roadshows. If your that bothered then contact us via the Atlanta myspace page with your email address and we will supply you with 'scanned' media in which we appeared.

CHE PALLE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfboy de roma (talk • contribs) 18:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment - perhaps you could contribute to the article by citing references. Your comments above are not helpful as secondary, verifiable sources are required in establishing notability. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 19:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Wouldnt it be breach of copyright to post 'scans'? I would be more than happy to attach all published/broadcast media to this article. I also trawled archive.org but found no such relevance.

As a matter of interest I recently tried to research my grandfather who was killed in WW2 when his ship was torpedoed by a German U-Boat. The U-Boat that destroyed his ship was the first to use acoustic technology, a massive development in maritime Warfare. It also carried the unique story of the ship picking up a survivor from another torpedoed boat only for the same man to be only one of two survivors from my Grandfathers ship, (torpedoed twice!). How well is this piece of history remembered?? Apart from a handfull of awful repeated web sites and the Commonwealth War Graves Commision there is nothing. Wikipedia has a misely article on this incident and if you search HMS ITCHEN you can also see that this does have 'references' associated but on greater inspection they are nothing more than just re-hashed copies.(albeit from reliable sources). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfboy de roma (talk • contribs) 19:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment if you have newpaper articles, you don't need to scan them in; you just need to reference them. Please read the above posts to see how to do that. Also I'm unsure what your WWII annotation has to do with anything. Perhaps you should read Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions as well. Also, please sign your posts. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


COMMENT We can provide dates and times for each article published and broadcast stating each publication and programme. This will be done from our own archives this weekend and if anyone needs to see copies of these sources we would be more than happy to oblige. My WW2 annotation has nothing to do with this, just mereley a point of how unruled, misinformed and uninformed the world wide web can be, especialy pre Internet. Atlanta Boy Band page is a reference to an unsigned band and although none of our recording material is within the public domain and we no longer gig - I AM, I WAS...... WolfboyDeRoma —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.115.138 (talk) 20:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment Please remember that you need to have notability. Follow the guidelines there to show that the band is notable. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 20:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
You know, not all sources are online. If they can provide reliable sources with dates and titles, we should assume those sources are accurate unless someone actually looks them up in a library in order to discredit them. Mangojuicetalk 20:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Please review my previous comments about making references to the articles and such. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 21:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I mistook your worry about notability for a worry about sources. I think if there are sources, the band might be notable regardless of the success standards described at WP:BAND. Mangojuicetalk 01:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Ok... the article creator, a clear COI and SPA, specifically declines to claim the band is notable. Unless we're changing wikipedia to include articles on non-notable topics, I'm not sure why this is contraversial? The only implication of notability is the claim that they were on all major commercial stations, and in Atlanta, all of the major commercial stations that I was listening to in the 90's had local "underground" shows, so the claim is entirely compatible with being non-notable -- the notability standard requires the band to be in the rotation nationally. Speedy A7.

Deltopia 23:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

    • I later accepted fully on being directed to the Wikipedia "notability" conditions that we do meet many of them. Also ATLANTA(Boy Band) are UK based and from Liverpool not the USA. I know there own written material was played on the radio as I worked for 21 years with Radio City. Each radio station that interviewed them played one of their own written tracks, so as no copyright problems. Can you also please explain the abbreviation talk about myself? COI and SPA Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 07:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)JBS
      • See WP:COI and WP:SPA. They both apply to you, but aren't the reasons why this would be deleted. Masaruemoto 04:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of WP:MUSIC, I think a good case can be made if there are actually a good number of reliable sources about the group. (Oh.. and G4 is for reposts, is that what you meant?) Mango

juicetalk 01:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah... A7, not G4. That's the first time, I think, I've been just utterly confident I remembered the Speedy number from the top of my head and used it without checking -- duh. :) Deltopia 22:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • delete- bad attitude plus no-notability. Bad faith.JJJ999 00:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete; They existed, that's it. Even if we assume everything the creator of the article is saying is true, this group still fail WP:MUSIC. A boyband that supported Backstreet Boys and Take That (two of the biggest boybands in history) would have something on the internet about them. A fansite, a few forum messages, anything. The excuse that they were around before the internet doesn't work, I've found information on more obscure bands than this, from 20 years ago. If this band played Wembley Stadium where are the photos? Masaruemoto 02:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

We have checked the conditions for Wikipedia "Notability" and we fully accept that we Do Meet many of these as replied to another comment above. If you also look above references where given for websites on such as Facebook, we have our own Music Atlanta MySpace site, we are mention in detail on our Managers MySpace, many of these we launched in 2007 to celebrate 10 years since we last appeared live as a group. Though discussion have continued on many general band sites about the Group, these fans many now being your women married with children. Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 08:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs)

There has been no bad attitude I trust from both myself as Manager of the Group or the member of the Group who replied personally, if this is how it has been perceived I can assure you it was not our intention. Exactly the opposite, part of the Groups success was it's friendly genuine Liverpool nature. We have attempted to answer all points raised and are working on doing so. I accepted fully that we do meet the criteria of "notability" when I was kindly directed to the Wikipedia conditions needed. In the UK to be a Young Ambassador for HRH Prince Charles's "The Prince's Trust" is looked on s "Notability" in itself and more so for an unsigned. Atlanta made many apperances at Special Events for The Trust as Yong Ambassador's. The Trust looked at Atlanta as what the principals and hopes for The Trust are are all about.

May I also point out that ATLANTA are a UK Group, someone seems to have gone on about Atlanta the city in the USA. All relevant claims will be fully substantiated with references over the next few days and after the weekend.

Can I say sincere thanks for all the kind help and advice that has been given to us, this is most appreciated, we all have the same aims I'm sure to make Wikepdia a reliable source of information, here sadly in the UK it is not always looked at in good light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs) 06:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I just trust this Saturday morning that we can all please remain "calm", we have been accused of a lot over the past 24 hours, when it is fully proved that we have been truthful, I hope these will all be withdrawn in a most friendly manner and then we can all continue with our lives and enjoy Wikipedia as a Free Encyclopeda and reference point - thanks. Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 06:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC) JBS


Reference: UK Artists Management Companies: JBS Management http://www.vocalist.org.uk/managers_listings1.html 91.109.2.153 11:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment I have reviewed the article looking for citations tags to be replaced with references and any additional information to substantiate the claims of the article. To-date, I have seen nothing new in the article. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 14:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You can be assured all points are being worked on,contact has been made with all "parties" concerned and all have said they will help. Certain sections of the UK Media contacted are most interested after looking at this page. Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 16:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)JBS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band (talk • contribs)

  • Comment Is it just me, or does most of this Afd seem like stalling so the band can recieve a bit of advertising. Sorry if it seems bitey, but that's just how it's looking to me. ARendedWinter 20:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That is your opinion, but it is not the case. We have just had the weekend when most offices and companies are closed in the UK and yesterday as stated above was the first full day we were able to make contact with all parties concerned, who have all said they will help. Thanks 91.109.2.153 05:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment Any progress? I see nothing substantial on the project page. --BlindEagletalk~contribs 14:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

We are expecting some of the relevant information today and it will be posted as quickly as possible, I can assure you progress is being made. Many Thanks John B Sheffield 16:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment- It is nice that they want to make progress, and I can't really imagine there will be any publicity from this, but I don't see why they should get special delaying privilleges because they boldly assert stuff. If they haven't improved it 5 days after AfD then the article should go, and they can appeal it when/if they get better material.JJJ999 02:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

We would like to thank everyone for their understanding and also those who have given advice and support.

Now we have posted a link, which shows that Atalnta toured with the BBC National Radio Station BBC Radio One, a flyer and artist pass, on this tour Atlanta where the only unsigned band.

A pass from the Childrens BBC TV appearance at the NEC Birmingham, a photo of the event is used on Wikopdeia.

An article in Mizz Magazine which is one of the longest runninbg teen magazines in the UK aznd who Atlanta toured with several times.

A personal letter from the HRH Prince Charles via his Private Secreatry, which as we claim clearly shows the interest HRH took, the private secreatry had attended for the Prince on the "The Prince's Trust" Concerts and also the private secretary makes reference to RCA Records and the negotiation followin recording the track "One More Chance" with them.

Now we hope that it will be seen the ATLANTA did achieve notability and are still discussed today and that WIKIPEDIA will allow the Atlanta entry as it is no way for publcity purposes.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=71171805&albumId=1377851

clicking on any jpg will enlarge it, though you have to be a member of myspace we have also listed all the above on our website:

http://atlantaboyband.mysite.orange.co.uk/

Each citation has it's own page.

This morning we have noticed some of the page is missing, but not in edit form?

Atlanta Liverpool Boy Band 05:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.