Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Asser Harb

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Mailer Diablo 14:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asser Harb

A hoax. The article claims that the 28 years old Asser Harb is Egypt's State Solicitor. The article was created by User:Captor (contribs)who joined wikipedia just to edit this article and its images and was later expanded by User:AsserHarb. In the article's talk the author first claims that Asser Harb is the Attorney General of Egypt then he admits he isn't saying that "Asser Harb is a notable person in Egypt for another reason, namely his outstanding international legal practice in the major investor-state complicated cases which involve a very controversial legal and political issues". He claims that there are several google hits for Asser Harb in Arabic. He also admits that he is both User:AsserHarb and User:Captor. However, the current attorney General in Egypt is Judge Abd al Mageed Mahmoud. The link at the end of the article -in Arabic- says that Harb is a lawyer in a bank "آسر حرب المحامي ببنك مصر الدولي". Furthermore, Google search for "Asser Harb" retrieved 3 results, 2 of which are wikipedia and the third is for user Asser Harb in a matchmaking site. Interestingly, google search for "آسر حرب" (Arabic for Asser Harb) also retrieved 3 results, one of which is a post in a forum, the second is an old redirect page in Arabic Wikipedia to the deleted page آسر حرب (Asser Harb)and the third is user talk in Arabic wikipedia for User:AsserHarb. History of the page (also in Arabic) reveals a sysop in the Arabic wikipedia saying that the article the user created about Asser Harb is unverifiable, has no sources and doesn't coincide with wikipedia criteria. The article was later deleted.--Wedian 04:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Per nom... that's about the most in-depth nomination I've ever seen. tmopkisn ^tlka 04:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as hoax per looooooong researched nom. Alphachimp ^talk 04:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, as hoax, per nom. Carioca 04:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Now that's research! -- Gogo Dodo 04:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and congrats to the nom for extensive research. Pascal.Tesson 05:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Looks like all of the leads were followed to their ends.  (aeropagitica)  (talk)  06:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a hoax. --Coredesat talk. o.o;; 07:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, with appreciation due to the nominator for going the extra mile in researching this. -- H·G (^words/_works) 07:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per above. Dionyseus 09:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I've given the nominator a barnstar for her extensive research of this topic. :) --Coredesat talk. o.o;; 10:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and congrats excellent research. Thanks to Cordesat for stepping up with the barnstar. --DarkAudit 13:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment If Wikipedia adopted a Limbo namespace, this article could be moved to Limbo during the discussion on deletion. Moving an article to Limbo would remove it from the article namespace and prevent search engines from delivering suspicious content while the community decides whether to keep or delete it. For more information, see the discussion on establishing the Limbo namespace. Fg2 00:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• DO NOT Delete and congrats excellent research. --82.201.207.248 23:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)--82.201.207.248 23:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• DO NOT Delete and congrats You are mistaken. --TocToc 23:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• DO NOT Delete You are not in a position to call a page for deletion on the basis you have mentioned, It is Asser Harb who represented Egypt in so many international arbitration cases, probably you do not know him because you are not a specialist.--Captor 23:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Cribcage 23:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
• Comment As i mentioned above, Use:Captor is User:AsserHarb. User TocToc has 8 contributions in Wikipedia, 2 of which were testing and self reverting in article Nabila Ebeid. The other 6 are all related to article Asser Harb including uploading his image [1],categorizing the article in category prominent juriists then self reverting and this Afd. His very first contibution in Wikipedia was in Talk:Asser Harb saying :"Thank you for your clarification. The page has been fixed and I guess it is now quite useful for the audience of Wikipedia"[2]. User 82.201.207.248 (contributions) has joined Wikipedia today just to remove the hoax tag from the article and to participate in this Afd. He also tried to vandalize this page thrice [3] , [4] and [5]by removing the delete votes. Interestingly, both signed thiis Afd "DO NOT Delete and congrats"!!. Are we having 4 sock puppets here? --Wedian 02:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear All,

I reviewed the history of the article and the pages of Xaosflux and Wedian and I found out that both of them are not legal professionals and thus they should not and could not be aware of the validity of the content of the article. As an Egyptian legal professional, I ensure that it is undisputed that Asser harb is a well known and a distinct State Solicitor in Egypt and thus I confirm that all the content of the article is true and NOT a hoax. Please proceed to save the article from deletion.

Ahmed Hassan

It seems that Wedian is not a legal professional. She can not defferentiate between the Attorney General and the Solicitor General. In Egypt, the Title Attorney General is misused before the name of the Public Prosecutor, however, the title Solicitor General is used before the name of the President of the State Lawsuits Authority, another judicial institution that is in charge of representing Egypt before national and international courts.

Indeed, Asser Harb was a bank lawyer one day ( and the article itself says this), but he is currently Egypt's State Solicitor, i.e. he is currently a member within the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority. He is also well known as an eminent international legal practitioner on behalf of Egypt in complex international arbitrations.

As a legal professional working in Egypt, I ensure that although all the comments of Wedian can possibly be true, however I confirm at the same time that all the content of the article Asser Harb is true and valuable to the legal wikipedians.

Wedian is not a legal practitioner but a pharmacist, who should not and could not judge a legal article like Asser Harb.

BY THE WAY THE PUBLIC PROSECUTOR (OR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL) IS NOT A JUGE BUT AN ADVOCATE FOR THE STATE IN CRIMINAL CASES. TAKE CARE USER BEFORE MISLEADING THE OTHER WIKIPEDIANS TO MIS UNDERSTAND THE CONTENT OF A VALUABLE ARTICLE. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.201.207.248 (Talk) (talk • contribs) 23:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP Following the history of the article in that way does not lead necessarily to the deletion of the article. It seems that Wedian improperly confounds between two different Egyptian Judicial institutions, the Public Prosecution النيابة العامة in one hand and the State Lawsuits Authority هيئة قضايا الدولة in the other hand. The members of the aforementioned two judicial institutions are not judges but counsel for the state. Google hits can not possibly be a criterion to evaluate the credibility of the article, since most of the members of judicial institutions in Egypt and other countries are not popularly known, however they are just famous and well known among the legal practitioners. I worked closely to Honorable Asser Harb and he is really an exceptional legal faculty that should be recorded by Wikipedia. It is not the author's fault to have non-legal wikipedians unware of the famous legal practitioners in Egypt, but it is the fault of Wedian who is obviously legally ignorant.--Save Data 13:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I understand you claim to you are a legal practitioner. I assume you understand Arabic. I encourage you to look here to see who the president of the Egyptian lawsuits authority is, who btw is 67 years old. You can also read about the 13 vice presidents here and the 26 members here. No Asser Harb in any of these lists, right? Please, review the law governing the Egyptian lawsuits authority here. The 28 years old Asser Harb can't even be a judge or councel (moustashar). At best, he is an ordinary lawyer.--Wedian 17:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment User:Save Data appears to be a single purpose account. Pascal.Tesson 13:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Dear Wedian, I purden you for your misunderstanding because you are not a specialist. The website Arab Decision that you have cited do not comprise all of the members of the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority. Moreover all the names included therein are not updated. For instance the current President of the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority is not H.E. Counselor Hossam Adel Azim as you have just contended, but he is H.E. Counselor Milad Sidhom and you are invited to read the content of this link [6]. Furthermore, you have to know that the word "counsel" does not mean مستشار in Arabic but means نائب and مستشار in English is "Counselor". The State Counsel or نائب الدولة in Arabic is normally so much younger than the State Counselor or مستشار الدولة and thus Honorable Asser harb, who is Egypt's State Counsel, should be so much younger than H.E. the President of the State Lawsuits Authority, who should be, in accordance to the governing law of the Authority, the oldest Vice President in the Authority. As regards the number of members in the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority, it is not 28 as mentioned in the Arab Decision website but more than 2000. Moreover, youy have to know that Asser Harb was appointed as State Counsel within the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority by virtue of the Presedential Decree No. 133/2003 and you can easily get a copy from the Formal Gazzette الجريدة الرسمية . Also, you can simply know more about Honorable Asser Harb from the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority at the 10th floor, Mogamaa Building, Tahrir Square, Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority, Department of Foreign Disputes. You will learn that although he is one of the youngest members of the authority, he is currently recognised for his extensive international legal practice on behalf of the Arab Republic of Egypt. Because you set out an in depth research, you have to complete it to the end. Go on and I am sure you will not delete the article but you eill try to enhance it. My last advice to you is that you have to take care you are currently insulting a judicial member within the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority, the act that constituites a crime in accordance with the Egyptian penal law, which you can possibly be accused of ( even in Mansoura). Best Regards --Save Data 20:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I would consider these last threats as a very serious offense toward WP:CIVIL if they were not so laughable. Look if you have documented evidence of what you're saying then it should be easy to actually provide that evidence. Please stop wasting everyone's time with your lectures and give us hard facts. Pascal.Tesson 21:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not in a position to file evidence against anyone here, but I am just talking from a legal point of view in accordance with the applicable Egyptian law. It does not matter with me personally to have the article kept or deleted. I am just drawing the attention to a fact that is well-furnished. To provide a hard fact ( as you have just requested) ; I simply invite anyone who can understand Arabic to review Article 6 bis of the law governing the Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority here and he will learn that I am right. As regards filing evidence, it can possibly be filed under the Egyptian applicable law which you do not know anything about but I do.--Save Data 22:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment This is my last comment. I'm not engaging anymore into this. The author of the article tried to convince the readers that Asser Harb is the chief state solicitor. User:AsserHarb (contribs) and User:196.205.176.54( contribs) - another single purpose accountwho only adds Asser Harb related content- have created Egyptian State Lawsuits Authority and the Egypt section in Attorney General with the sole name of Asser Harb in both articles. But, if you are certifying that Asser Harb is one of the councels in the Egyptian lawsuits authority, then he certainly fails WP:BIO. This actually ends it -at least for me-. No offense intended, but the article Asser Harb lists no special achievments except for his job. I guess we have first to write articles about all the current and previous presidents, vice presidents, judges and councelors of all Egyptian_Judicial_System#Courts of the Egyptian_Judicial_System and then we can turn to counsels and prosecutors. How many articles would that be? If you are - as i assume- Asser Harb yourself or one of his friends, then please read WP:AB and WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Instead , why not use your legal knowledge to help wikipedia by expanding articles like the Egyptian Judicial System, Supreme Constitutional Court of Egypt, Egyptian Civil Code or Abdel-Razzak Al-Sanhuri who wrote the first version of the Egyptian civil code. Another thing, User:Pascal.Tesson was asking you to provide evidence to verify your statements about Asser Harb and not evidence that i might be punished if i insult a judicial member. BTW, how serious are these threats? Should i be afraid and disappear from wikipedia before anybody discovers who really i am and make me really disappear? :)--Wedian 03:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.