Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Araxi Hubbard Dutton Palmer
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete. Fram (talk) 10:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Araxi Hubbard Dutton Palmer
I recognize that I am getting ready to feed myself to the lions with this one, but here is another by a group of admitted meatpuppets that fails WP:BIO. The gist of the article is that her parents were killed in the Armenian Genocide when she was a baby, she was rescued by Americans when she was a baby, lived virtually her entire life in the US, and wrote a book that she self-published about her family's suffering. Oh, and apparently she knows Gary Hayes and Bryan Pisano. While this woman is probably a fascinating person to talk to and did have a pretty tragic beginning, that in and of itself doesn't equal notability. There simply aren't any reliable secondary sources in the article, I couldn't find any either...she isn't notable by Wikipedia standards. SmashvilleBONK! 15:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
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- For the purposes of this AfD discussion, I don't believe that you have to write that the article was written by "a group of admitted meatpuppets." That statement has no relevance to the article's relevance or notability. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- And about knowing Gary Hayes, it's important because she opposed him in a County Clerk race. As for Bryan Pisano, well I undid the revision that added that "She also knows Bryan Pisano," that Sgt. Bender added. Actually, I've done it twice; he just undid my undo the first time. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Considering how the other discussions you, Sgt. Bender and the others have been involved in were, it most certainly is relevant. --SmashvilleBONK! 15:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- How? Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- For the purposes of this AfD discussion, I don't believe that you have to write that the article was written by "a group of admitted meatpuppets." That statement has no relevance to the article's relevance or notability. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. Agree with the nomination: the subject clearly fails WP:BIO. No independent sources covering the subject listed in the article and nothing else that I could find on the web. GoogleBooks returns a single hit, to her book[1]. Nothing in GoogleNews[2] or GoogleScholar[3]. Even a plain Google search return only 74 hits [4]. It is borderline possible that the book itself is notable per WP:BK and maybe a separate article about the book might stand on its own. But even that appears unlikely as I did not see any independent reviews of the book by WP:RS. As for the present article, clearly fails WP:BIO and should be deleted. Nsk92 (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete: per Nsk92's thorough analysis. Beyond that, the mentions of Gary Hayes and Bryan Pisano in the article are telling, being recent AfDed articles involving meatpuppetry from User:Dr.orfannkyl and User:Sgt. bender among others (see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Sgt. bender), and who are the two editors pushing this article. RGTraynor 16:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I cannot vote on this because I think that would be the dreaded meatpuppetry, but tell us what to do to make this article acceptable. Sgt. bender (talk) 04:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Comment clearly meets the perspective of being one of the last of something. Examples on Wikipedia include Zablon Simintov and Surviving veterans of World War I. This page chronicles one of the last survivors of the Armenian genocide who is also one of the most prominent ones still alive. And also, she hates Gary Hayes, just like you, Smashville. Give the lady a break, she's an orphan. Sgt. bender (talk) 04:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- First, you are welcome to vote here (just once, of course), just like everybody else is welcome. Second, there is no category of being "the last of something" in WP:BIO. The examples you cite all have coverage by independent reliable sources. This is why they are included in WP. In terms of what you can do to improve the article, well, if you can find independent reliable sources covering the subject of the article, that'd be great. If not, there is nothing else to be done, and the article will have to be deleted. Nsk92 (talk) 04:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- To Nsk92: thank you for your comment. You're polite (no sarcasm.) I'll see what I can do about improving the article. When would it be deleted by so I can plan accordingly? I'll refrain from voting on this issue. My brother Dr.Orfannkyl created the page, so he can vote in my stead. I'll just comment .Sgt. bender (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Regarding the timing, I don't know. The AfD debates usually run for at least 5 days, but sometimes they are closed early if there is a particularly clear case of consensus. The closure is done by an admin (of which I am not one). I should also stress that when I say "will have to be deleted", I am expressing my personal opinion, no more. It is possible (although in my view rather unlikely) that the AfD will turn in favor of keep. One other thing. As I said above, it may be easier to get enough reliable sources to justify the notability of the book, per WP:BK. If you find such sources, it may be appropriate to create a WP entry about the book. Nsk92 (talk) 05:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Sgt. bender (talk) 06:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Regarding the timing, I don't know. The AfD debates usually run for at least 5 days, but sometimes they are closed early if there is a particularly clear case of consensus. The closure is done by an admin (of which I am not one). I should also stress that when I say "will have to be deleted", I am expressing my personal opinion, no more. It is possible (although in my view rather unlikely) that the AfD will turn in favor of keep. One other thing. As I said above, it may be easier to get enough reliable sources to justify the notability of the book, per WP:BK. If you find such sources, it may be appropriate to create a WP entry about the book. Nsk92 (talk) 05:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- To Nsk92: thank you for your comment. You're polite (no sarcasm.) I'll see what I can do about improving the article. When would it be deleted by so I can plan accordingly? I'll refrain from voting on this issue. My brother Dr.Orfannkyl created the page, so he can vote in my stead. I'll just comment .Sgt. bender (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ummm ... she's scarcely the last one of anything. There were countless survivors of the Armenian genocide ... after all, well, Armenia exists, and according to the numbers there are around nine million Armenians worldwide. RGTraynor 05:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- She's clearly not the last Armenian but she is one of the last survivors of the Armenian genocide just as Zablon Simintov is the last surviving Jew in Afghanistan. Sgt. bender (talk) 06:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- She may be amongst the last survivors of the Armenian genocide, but that's simply a matter of time passing. In any case, anyone born in Armenia who's 90 or older would count as a survivor, and I suspect there are many, despite the genocide. She's not unique. Besides, note the international media coverage from major sources for Zablon Simintov. There is absolutely no comparison with the case of Araxi Hubbard Dutton Palmer. Voceditenore (talk) 06:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- In fact, it's estimated that there are currently 200 - 300 survivors living in the United States, let alone the rest of the world. See The Queens Courier, April 9, 2008. [5] Voceditenore (talk) 06:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- She's clearly not the last Armenian but she is one of the last survivors of the Armenian genocide just as Zablon Simintov is the last surviving Jew in Afghanistan. Sgt. bender (talk) 06:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm nominating the article for deletion. I'm not nominating the woman for deletion. There is no reason for such a defensive, uncivil response. --SmashvilleBONK! 13:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- First, you are welcome to vote here (just once, of course), just like everybody else is welcome. Second, there is no category of being "the last of something" in WP:BIO. The examples you cite all have coverage by independent reliable sources. This is why they are included in WP. In terms of what you can do to improve the article, well, if you can find independent reliable sources covering the subject of the article, that'd be great. If not, there is nothing else to be done, and the article will have to be deleted. Nsk92 (talk) 04:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment clearly meets the perspective of being one of the last of something. Examples on Wikipedia include Zablon Simintov and Surviving veterans of World War I. This page chronicles one of the last survivors of the Armenian genocide who is also one of the most prominent ones still alive. And also, she hates Gary Hayes, just like you, Smashville. Give the lady a break, she's an orphan. Sgt. bender (talk) 04:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete Like Nsk92, I did the four Googles + I searched the Highbeam Archives to which I have a subscription. (It sometimes throws up stuff that doesn't make it into Google.) Nothing, apart from adverts from a few book dealers, an item in the local school newsletter about her talking to the 10th graders and a Yahoo Group announcement about her speaking at a local discussion forum. I even did a search on the book's co-author, Arpenia Karagosian - again nothing. This article does not even begin to pass the notability criteria for a person nor does it pass them for a book. It is self-published, with no significant independent coverage or even reviews. Incidentally, coverage which simply announces an appearance somwhere does not count as 'significant' per WP:BIO guidelines. Voceditenore (talk) 06:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Keep Her notability is not derived only from the fact that she is one of the last Armenian genocide survivors living in the United States; it comes from the fact that she has published her book called Triumph From Tragedy and travels around New York State retelling her story. When these three things, though maybe not significant enough individually to pass WP: Bio, combine, they do indeed pass it, in my opinion. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- How? --SmashvilleBONK! 15:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- How do those things combined pass WP:BIO? Are there any reliable secondary sources? --SmashvilleBONK! 15:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately for Araxi Hubbard Dutton Palmer, there aren't many reliable second party sources. She has one reference from search.com and her book is on amazon.com, but otherwise... As for going throughout N.Y., she has imbued in students the knowledge of a genocide long forgotten by modern standards, and is able to do it with her book, and her status as one of the last Armenian Genocide survivors in the U.S. She's well-known in New York State, but not really anywhere else in the country. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Then that's all she wrote. Notability is determined by WP:BIO, and verified by reliable sources. Someone who lacks the latter just doesn't qualify for an article, period. RGTraynor 16:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Although the way you constructed your response seems uncivil, I can't really argue your base statement. Unfortunately, although she is notable, there aren't many sources to back it up. Consider my vote changed. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 17:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Then that's all she wrote. Notability is determined by WP:BIO, and verified by reliable sources. Someone who lacks the latter just doesn't qualify for an article, period. RGTraynor 16:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately for Araxi Hubbard Dutton Palmer, there aren't many reliable second party sources. She has one reference from search.com and her book is on amazon.com, but otherwise... As for going throughout N.Y., she has imbued in students the knowledge of a genocide long forgotten by modern standards, and is able to do it with her book, and her status as one of the last Armenian Genocide survivors in the U.S. She's well-known in New York State, but not really anywhere else in the country. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- How do those things combined pass WP:BIO? Are there any reliable secondary sources? --SmashvilleBONK! 15:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment RGTraynor's response may have been succinct, but it's not at all uncivil. She has zero references at search.com apart from Wikipedia and its mirrors and a few used book shops. The listing on Amazon means nothing. Anyone can list their book there. If she is "well known in New York State", why have no NY newspapers or magazines written anything about her? Why is there no mention whatsoever of her on these main US based websites? armeniadiaspora.com, The Armenian National Committee of America, theforgotten.org (with video interviews with survivors of the genocide in the US and an ABC news special), and The Armenian National Institute. This doesn't mean that she isn't an interesting or moving speaker, and hasn't had an effect on the high school students who have heard her. It simply means that's there's not enough to warrant an encyclopedia article. Voceditenore (talk) 17:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- I already agree; I changed my vote an hour ago. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 18:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for being civil and understanding about it. Honestly. Incidentally, I didn't know much at all about the Armenian Genocide and have been reading about it for the past day...so it did serve that purpose. --SmashvilleBONK! 18:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- I already agree; I changed my vote an hour ago. Dr.orfannkyl (talk) 18:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. As there are no reliable sources cited, I am persuaded that the article does not comply with the verifiability policy. Stifle (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp (talk) 21:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete The article fails WP:BIO. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- Strong Delete. What's this thing still doing here? It fails WP:BIO, WP:RS, and WP:BK. Qworty (talk) 05:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
