Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/April 24 circular

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. --Coredesat 04:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 24 circular

April 24 circular (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Another of a series of pages OttomanReference has created in parallel to the Armenian Genocide page, it is original research as well as a FORK. He's trying to creat some notability to his theories about the Armenian Genocide Fad (ix) 17:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the original article, before my recent edits constituted Armenian genocide denialist literature. The references were unverifiable, and there were no academic references. Consider renaming the article to "April 24 (Armenian Genocide)". Otherwise, I support the delete. Serouj 20:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: April 24 circular is a "cited event" which is included in the literature (both sides). It is the most important, the milestone, even in the history of Armenian Genocide. It is not an original research. The day of the "April 24 circular" is recognized with the Genocide Remembrance Day as the beginning of the Armenian genocide. April 24 circular is not the Armenian genocide itself to be claimed as a "parallel article", it is part of the Armenian genocide. It is not a fork, it is included in the article like the many other sub-articles. It is "genocide deniers", propaganda to eliminate this event, or other milestone events, from the history of Armenian genocide. Elimination of this article will bring a big gap in the storyline Armenian genocide, which genocide denier's main policy to eliminate the "milestones" from the "history of genocide". This is a "bad faith" nomination on behalf of (ix). OttomanReference 21:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep. The article is a significant event in the time line of the genocide, elimination of this article will bring a big gap. This is a bad faith nomination.OttomanReference 21:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Assume good faith, this nomination is under two policies. , having any notability. You've filled it with original research. April 24 refers to the Armenian intellectuals arrest and the changing policy on the evacuation. The Armenian genocide has still to survive after the damages you have created. Fad (ix) 22:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The user Fad (ix) is acting on bad faith (a) He accepts the circular and its consequences as a "part of Armenian Genocide" which he specifically mention the importance in his comment [1] (b) Article is hardly an original research as the content is covered in both sides of the argument. Besides there is a genocide memorial day which choses the same day. (c) it is a bad faith as Fadix concentrates on personalities and trashes them. In this case the OttomanReference. Fadix divides people into camps and rejects the cited additions of the users based on the camps that he constructs. (d) What fadix believes as attack against the genocide is totally his construction, as there are many people who believes the real attack against the genocide is elimination of the most important events, milestones, from the wikipedia and keeping the Armenian genocide without "strong" factual base. The people who bring "strong factual base" is attacked by the Fadix as a denier. This is part of "Defender"-"Deniar" duality that Fadix generates. OttomanReference 23:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC).
There is an April 24, the symbolic beggining of the Armenian genocide. When intellectuals and artists were arrested and later killed, on which date, the Ottoman redirected the evacuation in the desert. There is no such notable thing as April 24 circular. This notability, YOU cooked it, much like you have cooked other notabilities and created articles. Assume good faith on the reasons behind my decision. You have created a FORK, of a date covered in the Armenian Genocide main page. Your disruptions have no end. And also, stop making unsubstanciated charges against me. Fad (ix) 23:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The circular as a document is real. There is no symbolism on the circular as the official document codes are known and published. Archive code BOA. DH. ŞFR, nr.52/96,97,98. It was one of the most famous circular of the Ottoman Government which passed on April 24, 1915 by Talat Pasha. The effects are also real and covered under Armenian notables deported from the Ottoman capital in 1915. It is a "bad faith" nomination.OttomanReference 23:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
This circular IS NOT notable, you have just confirmed my point that this article is not about April 24, but about your supposed notable circular of April 24, which is totally absent of ALL notable works covering April 24. This article is a FORK, like it or not. Fad (ix) 23:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The title of the article is April 24 circular, if anything that is not related with the Talat Pasha's order was not included in the article. The version [2] version before Fad (ix) edited proves this point.
Article is not about "commemoration of the genocide." The title is "April 24 circular" which tells the events related with the circular. The effect of circular is so important that the same day is selected for commemoration. Commemoration is a supporting argument for keeping. Even the user (FADIX) who asked for deletion says it exits in this comment which in the link ""FADIX: You are using my arguments which justified my claims that there was a dispute. March 2, the deportation started, April 24, a general order of deportation was issued,.."" The claims that nonexistence of this event and asking for deletion is a bad faith. Thanks. -- OttomanReference 00:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Comment/Keep'Temporarily Undecided (see below) - The nominator's reason for the deletion nomination is that "There is no such thing as an 'April 24 circular'". Actually, there is. Search for +"April 24" +circular -wikipedia Armenian in Google and on the first page you get what is apparently a Turkish government link (or at least a strongly denialist website) that states:

The Ottoman government, after having been patient for nine months following the general mobilization, was finally forced to ake sound measures vis-à-vis the Armenians. In the wake of the eruption of the Van Rebellion, on 9 C. 1333 (24 April 1915) the vernment sent a secret circular to provincial and sanjak governors with the aim of disbanding the revolutionary committees which had initiated these incident and which had armed the Armenians. In this circular it requested that the Armenian committee headquarters be closed, that their files be seized and that the committee leaders be arrested. (copied from [3])

Moreover, as User:OttomanReference has noted, the circular carries the title BOA. DH. ŞFR, nr. 52/96, 97, 98 (see footnote 16 of the same link). Whether the page title should be changed or certain info should be added to/removed from the article is not a reason to bring it to AfD. Black Falcon 05:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Black Falcon. Sorry, but I have said There is no such thing as an 'April 24 circular', having any notability. You have, I assume, involuntarily distorted my message by adding a dot after the term circular and by mistake deleted my words. (check diff).

I do not deny the claim of a circular, I have said a second time in this very same page: There is no such notable thing as April 24 circular. This notability, YOU cooked it,… April 24 is recognized as the day when intellectuals have been arrested, most killed. What OttomanReference did is taking the Turkish government claim on the event (the very same page from the Turkish government website you have footnoted). Check the article on its state before Serouj edits, check the footnotes OttomanReference had provided and the text and compare them with the one from the page you have linked here. This page was created as a fork of the Armenian genocide article, check the genocide article section about April 24. OttomanReference created this parallel article by recycling the official Turkish government claim on April 24 events by cooking some notability over some obscure 24 April circular and completing it with original research. He created two parallel articles about Armenian casualties, in parallel to the already existing Armenian casualties’ article. The article he has worked on titled: Armenian notables deported from the Ottoman capital in 1915 which seems as a good intentioned article, while the large majority of the notables who have been deported have been murdered, those mostly cited are those having survived. Ottomanreference had a history of disruption on the Armenian genocide article, having created documented socks, and the article still suffer of the disruptions he has created by using his socks to implement his changes.

Just as evidences, this is what he wrote above: The title of the article is April 24 circular, if anything that is not related with the Talat Pasha's order was not included in the article. The version [2] version before Fad (ix) edited proves this point. Now check April 24 on google, and see what are 99,99% of the results you obtain in connection with the Armenians, is actually not related to Ottomanreference cooked event, and thosefor can not be used to justify the existance of his cooked article, which is a FORK, the reason I have provided for its deletion, and not the reason you report I have given. Fad (ix) 06:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

    • My apologies for the misunderstanding. I thought you had nominated the article for deletion on grounds of WP:HOAX, but after rereading your comments above, I see now your point revolves around WP:Notability. I am, for now, changing my "keep" comment to "undecided" until I can look into this topic some more. Thank you for pointing out my error and assuming good faith. Cheers, Black Falcon 07:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. You won't find any mention of an "April 24 circular" in academic papers on the Armenian Genocide. OttomanReference has not provided a verifiable source in accord with WP:VERIFY and his arguments are considered Armenian Genocide denial which only has one place in Wikipedia: the Denial of the Armenian Genocide article, where its claims will be debunked anyway. April 24 is to the Armenian Genocide what Kristallnacht is to the Holocaust. If anything, an article named "April 24 (Armenian Genocide)" should be created, not one title after a non-existent "April 24 circular". Serouj 07:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Moreover, http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/1b_001a.htm is not "material that has been published by reliable sources" and therefore fails WP:VERIFY. The government of Turkey is known to be a denier of the Armenian Genocide, and therefore this type of argument belongs in the Denial of the Armenian Genocide article. Serouj 07:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - sources do not assert notability of the April 24th Circular. It is apparent that April 24th is, in fact, a notable day in the chronology of the Armenian Genocide. However, it is not apparent that this circular is notable or important, outside of topic itself. --Haemo 10:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Sounds like POV forking. Completely inappropriate--TigranTheGreat 11:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. -- Aivazovsky 12:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:Notability: a topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, reliable published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself. Though Talaat's order is often noted in books on the Genocide, it is always done so as part of giving the history of 24 April 1915. Thus, due to the lack of "non-trivial, reliable" sources that treat the circular as their primary subject-matter, I am changing my original vote (see above) to delete. Black Falcon 18:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I support User:Serouj's idea to create some kind of article about April 24, 1915: e.g., 24 April 1915 purge of Armenian intellectuals or 24 April (Armenian Genocide). Or perhaps the information can be added to the background of the Genocide Remembrance Day article. Black Falcon 18:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
    • It is a good proposition, the thing is that the main article is in very bad shape, I would find it logical to work on it first. Fad (ix) 19:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - The genocide remebrance day is enough, and correct. Nareklm 18:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. I agree with Serouj and Narek. Hakob 01:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. After reviewing and examinening all the facts and the arguments. I made up my mind to vote for delete for the reasons above, which was my first vote, to delete but changed my mind temporarly to review the facts clearly. ROOB323 06:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Per nom.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 21:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.