Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Apolyton Civilization Site

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 13:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apolyton Civilization Site

Non-notable Internet forum and website. Fails WP:WEB. Please see the AfD discussion for Serebii.net for past precedent of fansite deletion. This website is no different than any other fansite that has been deleted from Wikipedia. --- RockMFR 14:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Fails WP:WEB. Google returned search from Wikipedia, Answer and ads only. Further improvement is quite unlikely. Imoeng 14:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - I fail to see how that's the case, a Google search for "Apolyton" returns the site itself, several hosted sites, a blog entry about the site, with references to Apolyton from other sites on Page 3. Also search with keywords "Apolyton Firaxis" to see pages 1 and 2) references from 3rd-party sites. Solver 22:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete mostly because it's already in all the external links for the games they support (I added them to those pages it wasn't already listed in when I saw this AfD. It is a valuable site, and does qualify as an external link), and I don't think that there's much need for the content in this article. It's available on their about page anyway. That said, I could be persuaded otherwise, since they have done interviews and ran a convention that apparently got Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds (among others) to attend. FrozenPurpleCube 14:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to suspend my deletion per the information as to notabilty panning out. FrozenPurpleCube 15:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete, site is rather significant in a narrow niche, but no evidence has been shown for meeting WP:WEB. Not of interest to non-Civ players unless there was mainstream coverage of the site or their con or of the malware that was spread from there a few years ago disguised as a program revision. Barno 17:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as per nom and Imogen Bwithh 21:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, article gives no indication for meeting WP:WEB. Sandstein 22:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - it's more of a specialist media outlet than a fan site (it covers more than just a single title and it even has its own podcast/radio braodcast), and that's how it should be treated. I would compare it to the signifiance of college newspapers, which although small in circulation, have articles too. Note to mention that they *are* after all organizing a convention, which is pretty impressive and worth documenting. It has an extensive history of news surrounding the genres it's involved with and there are scores of things worth noting on their, such as the Apolyton University[1], a game-based educational effort. Also used a google search to find more than "answer and ads" per Imoeng - run a google search on "apolyton "PC Gamer"" and you'll get a *very* different set of links which satisfy rule 1 of WP:WEB. I added some edits to flesh it out more but I'm tired and it's late. Krupo 04:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional keep. I feel that claims of non-notability are incorrect- the site spearheaded direct working with Firaxis over things like the list of enhancements for Civilization III, and there are certainly elements to the site other than "just another forum community." Even based solely on forum communities, I think Apolyton has a non-trivial rank in size, or at least did back in ~2001 or so. I would see this as roughly on the level of, say, the Harry Potter Lexicon (found via a quick search for "Harry Potter website"), which is a website that apparently has attracted the notice of JK Rowling. You can find several references to Apolyton at places like [2]. That said, the concern about verifiable sources is valid. It seems that Krupo has done some work in correcting this. If this deficit can be remedied with the addition of some third-party notice of Apolyton, I would vote keep. Disclaimer: While I haven't posted there for two years, I did formerly post on the Apolyton forums. SnowFire 04:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Typically, I tend to vote against articles on web-forums, however Apolyton is, as far as I know, the main forum with semi-official backing (so much so that sometimes posters who create mods for Civilization have had those mods incorporated into very notable games). Also, given that it's organizing a convention and the fact that it is actually quite a bit more than a forum I feel it meets notability requirements. Perhaps could use a reference separate from the official Sid Meier site, however. However, in the interest of disclosure, I am an occassional player of Civilization IV and have consulted Apolyton in the past, if this is too much of a conflict of interest (which I don't believe it is: I'm in no way affiliated with the site and haven't used it for some time) then just ignore this. --The Way 05:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - The article lacks sources, but that seems to be being dealt with. The site has official recognition with Firaxis, and is more than 'just a fan-site'. The Kinslayer 10:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete & transwiki - This may not be notable enough for Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, but for a gaming wiki it would fit in well. SunStar Net 10:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Although not mentioned in the article, there are quite a few ways other than the fact that Apolyton is sponsored by Firaxis as noted earlier. http://apolyton.net/about/10/125/ denotes quite a few mentions, including Slashdot, PC Games, as well as some awards. As well, although the current article doesn't mention it, Apolyton had hosted the List for Civ3 and Civ4, the CTP2 Source Code Project, an exclusive preview for Rise of Nations, as well as others. Bill3000 19:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Also don't forget Firaxis specifically thank Apolyton and CFC in the Civ4 manual. - Dale

• Keep and rewrite. This may be considered a bias vote, as I am a staff member of this site. I agree that the current article doesn't really show it to be fitting under WP:WEB, but Apolyton has been mentioned several times on Slashdot, has won awards and has had mentions in print magazines as mentioned above (I can't find a reference to those print mentions right now, strangely). Also, Apolyton forums are linked to from the official Civ4 website, and several forum members have made their way to become employees of Firaxis. This, I believe, shows as it as notable per WP:WEB, though again, it does need a rewrite citing those references. Solver 22:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. To the best of my knowledge, Apolyton is the largest fansite for all things Meier, as well as having a significant degree of contact (and approval) from Firaxis. This alone qualifies it as being more legitimate than almost any other site. As noted above, it is used as a source for quite a few articles as well. The Kinslayer put it best: Apolyton "is more than 'just a fan-site'." Ourai ^т _с 02:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep: the convention and mention in a newsletter make it meet WP:WEB, I think. TimBentley (talk) 22:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep: It is a noteworthy site for multiple games.
• Keep. Very, very popular website of a very popular computer game. --Carioca 21:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep. Apolyton is a long standing resource for the gaming community, particularly given the immense popularity of the Civilization franchise. I would have suggested a strong keep, but the current version of the article admittedly doesn't do a good job of asserting notability, and the primary focus on one (albeit very, very popular) franchise detracts from the site's widespread appeal. --Alan Au 03:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
  • No vote. Actually, upon reflection, I've decided to take a neutral stance on fan sites, since there's no way I can have enough knowledge about enough subjects to evaluate them all objectively. --Alan Au 04:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep: is officially sanctioned by Firaxis, BHG & Stardock as well as the developers themselves being active at the forums. convention and awards meet criteria. let's delete RockMFR instead as they haven't provided anything useful and go around marking heaps of articles for deletion. Dale 05:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• I'm going to literally quote what I wrote on the CFC delete discussion because it applies to both these sites: - Dale

RockMFR, consider this. I worked on Civ4 (the primary game both CFC and Apolyton focus on) as a scenario designer. I worked on the sequel as well (both sites also focus on this). You want CFC/Apolyton content that is redistributed? Fine. My "Ages of Discovery" scenario was uploaded to both CFC and Apolyton as content of those sites. Now, the scenario 6 months later is spread across the web being redistributed. Also, this CFC and Apolyton content has been published in magazines (most notable July 2006 Strategy Gamer & November 2006 Computer Games Weekly) with other CFC & Apolyton exclusive content. Jon Shafer, Firaxis scenario designer, has released exclusive official content on both CFC & Apolyton (WW1 & South-East Asia scenarios) which are also now spread across the web.

• Keep Looks like there is a reference in a book [3] (this should be added to the article if it isn't already there). Mdwh 15:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, focused but popular and externally-referenced by other sites and programs. -- nae'blis 19:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.