Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Another Anime Convention (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Just because other pages violate notability criteria does not give this page a free pass to. Put those pages on AfD as well. Prodego talk 23:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another Anime Convention

Another Anime Convention (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Wikipedia is not a directory. No reliable independent third-party sources provided or found to indicate notability. Only sources that can be found are the convention's website, its press release, and its listing on AnimeCons.com's directory, which aren't enough to even come close to passing WP:ORG. --Farix (Talk) 03:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Previous discussions:
  • Comment - I forgot to mention that Another Anime Convention is the largest anime convention in New Hampshire. Should that make it a little more notable?? Kopf1988 22:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete then, delete now - completely non-notable new convention. MikeWazowski 07:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You seem to have missed my point. Click on each of those convention links, and tell me how they're notable please? Absolutely none of them at the time of my post had ANY sources to satisfy notability. It is a completely ridiculous idea to think that this article, and by extension all those others, should be deleted from Wikipedia! whatever you do, try to preserve information.Kopf1988 17:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You keep mentioning that you want to "try to preserve information" and link to Wikipedia:Editing policy. Maybe you should look at WP:ABOUTEVERYTHING and WP:ALLORNOTHING for a clearer view on "preserving" everything. --PatrickD 21:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
For one, my reference towards preserving information was to a Wikipedia Policy, while you mention only an Essay! Yes, it is true that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, but the information here is useful, verified, and more than just a phone-book directory listing. Kopf1988 22:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment The "preserve information" bit means that if part of an article is bad, the good parts should be kept. If the subject itself is not article-worthy, that doesn't really apply. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 00:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's one interpretation, however I see it as information should be preserved in general, including topics too. Kopf1988 17:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
That philosophy will only lead to cruft. We need to make editorial decisions as to what information is relevant and should be kept and what is simply trivial and unimportant. And if the only reliable sources you can provided is to prove that the convention exists, then its trivial information. --Farix (Talk) 15:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Why should this article be an exception to the guideline? There is a criteria for listing Anime conventions as outlined by the Conventions work group. One of which is meeting Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies). How about citing an article from the local New Hampshire newspaper about the event? A listing on AnimeCons.com isn't enough. --Squilibob 07:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Look closely at all the other Anime Convention links I provided (or randomly select a couple!) NONE of them have anything more than AnimeCons.com and the official website to claim notability. Are you telling me that these should all be deleted? Anime Conventions are rarely covered by news media, and they are a fairly new thing. Another Anime Convention has more references than OVER HALF of the articles in the anime conventions category. Kopf1988 17:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sure, some cons are missing references, but those aren't being nominated for deletion because -- at least for most of them -- people feel that we can find some reliable sources if we actually sit down and look. (We have been slowly plugging through the con articles adding references, but it takes time.) If you want to nominate them for deletion, nobody's stopping you. ...but I really don't think an AfD on AnimeNEXT (one of your examples) would get far considering it's the 10th largest con in the US and is fairly well known and has received a lot of press coverage. Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a good argument to keep an article. This AfD is about Another Anime Convention, not some other articles. --PatrickD 21:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
"(We have been slowly plugging through the con articles adding references, but it takes time.)" Again, you missed my main point, and it isn't that other stuff exists, but it is that this article is more referenced than half the stuff that I mentioned! It hasn't got much coverage yet because its new, but it's still in pretty good shape. Kopf1988 22:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the references, however, are not from reliable sources. And the ones that are do are actually directory listings and do not confer notability to the convention. As for pointing out that other convention articles have sourcing problems of their own, you are comparing apples and oranges. Most of those articles have several reliable sources available, but they go cited in the articles. But as for AAC, such reliable sources don't exist to begin with outside of the directory/event listings, such as AnimeCons.com. --Farix (Talk) 15:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete WP:N /Blaxthos 09:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete I attended the convention, I enjoyed the convention, I made new friends at the convention, and I am looking forward to returning to the convention this year...but in no way, shape, or form does it satisfy WP:CORP. --PatrickD 14:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Patrick, I noticed you arguing that it would not be fair to "not list an event just because it hasn't happened yet". Wouldn't those conventions be even more non-notable? For reference, I'm referring to your edit to Talk:List of anime conventions at 04:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC). Kopf1988 17:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
That was something I said in December 2005. I no longer feel that way. It goes against WP:CRYSTAL...and that's not relevant to this AfD anyway since this convention HAS happened. I'm not sure why you even bothered to bring it up. --PatrickD 21:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Much as I'd like to see this article cleaned up and preserved, I cannot agree to even a weak keep, for a number of reasons.
  1. The Primary Notability Criterion states, "A topic is notable if it has been the subject of at least one substantial or multiple, non-trivial published works from sources that are reliable and independent of the subject and of each other." The article in question fails the second half of that sentence. Anime-Cons.com is merely a repository of information from press releases and other data that comes directly from the Convention committees. As such, the information there is not independent from the subject.
  2. The other references provided within the article do not satisfy "non-trivial" mentions. The Anime-Mania.net listing is a mere list of upcoming conventions, The AnimeNewsNetwork article is a copy of a press release which is not independent, and the oasismag.com article is a blog entry of one person's account of the convention, without any assertion of press credential.
  3. The article does not contain any information that is not duplicated on the Convention's website, or on AnimeCons.com. What is the encyclopedic purpose of having an article on Wikipedia if it's just a mirror of other reference materials?
  4. And on the subject of "Notability is not policy," guidelines can and more often than not do result in better articles than this one being deleted. In fact the only difference between a policy and a guideline is that the policy is less likely to have exceptions. You have not proven that this article needs an exception.

The best solution that I see is to have the convention contact a number of local newspapers and television stations, give out a few press passes, have them write articles on the convention, and THEN and ONLY THEN, will you have the information to write an article on -- RoninBK T C 05:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the reason I would say that this article should be an exception is because it is the biggest anime convention in New Hampshire. That seems pretty notable. Kopf1988 01:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
...but apparently it wasn't notable enough for Mikkakan, NH's first anime con and the largest in New England until Anime Boston came along. --PatrickD 03:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
And I'm saying that the people who suggested deleting that article were wrong. Kopf1988 03:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this. If Notability is "generally permanent", then Mikkakan will always have the distinction of being the first con in its state (New Hampshire), and the first New England con (as it claims) to have an invited industry guest, even if surpassed in attendance in the New England region by Anime Boston, and now by the convention which is the subject of this very article. The former reason was enough for keeping No Brand Con. I would like to repeat the idea of merging the old Mikkakan articles and this one if a deletion seems likely. ~ SeanOrange 05:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure that's a good plan if possible, although I hope this article isn't deleted... it seems so much easier these days to delete information than to add it on WP. Kopf1988 21:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that it is the largest in the area does not excuse the article from not having the required sources. If the article for Anime Expo didn't have any secondary sources, it would be deleted too. -- RoninBK T C 09:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I still like to see an independent, non-trivial, reliable source stating that. --Farix (Talk) 15:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
There you go, they have been added.(View Diff) Kopf1988 16:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment - Your sources are mostly blogs and/or trivial mentions in directories or listings. They hardly confer any notability on the event - only show that it happened, which is not notable in and of itself. Please read the guidelines on what kinds of sources are required. Nothing you've added has changed my original opinion that this is a non-notable event at this time, and my original recommendation stands. MikeWazowski 16:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Mike, I'm not sure which part of this discussion you are commenting about. My statement that they have been added is referring to This Edit, in reply to Farix's request for independent, non-trivial, reliable sources stating that. That referred all the way back to my assertion that AAC is the largest anime convention in the state. Kopf1988 17:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The like you provided (as shown in that diff, may be from an independent source - however, it's definitely a trivial mention, as it's only a listing that the convention takes place, and likely taken directly from information provided by the convention itself. The page you link to does not make the claim, as you state, that the convention is the largest one in the state - it is merely a listing of conventions, and your assertion is your own opinion based on information found on that page, and therefore original research, which should not be used. In any event, both this link and this link from that page are definitely trivial mentions, and do not confer any notability or independent editorial opinion about the event in question. The claim on the convention's own website is puffery, and also should not be used without verification by legitimate sources. Either way, it's a non-issue, as I do not believ the article will survive this AfD - I've certainly not seen anything here to change my opinion. MikeWazowski 17:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
You claim that I used original research, but the AAC homepage makes the claim. You say that the claim is puffery, but I provided two sources to validate the claim made on this page. If I did not make the claim, but instead only provided the references to validate it, then it is not original research. I suggest you take another look at the original research policy to realize that the claim is not Unpublished synthesis of published material, because the claim came from this page. Kopf1988 22:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite see where the two links from AnimeCons.com support the claim that it is the largest in NH. The first one is a search result, which is by nature a trivial mention. The second is the AnimeCons.com listing, which we've already established that while it may help prove some facts, it can't support subjective claims like "the largest in X."
The point is, you are trying to use primary sources, (i.e. the convention's own words,) to prove what the convention claims. By our policies, we need second-hand accounts from reliable sources.
Trust me when I say that I am not unsympathetic to what you are doing. But I really think that maybe you need to take a step back, and think about this. Do you maybe have a conflict of interest? Trust me, if it was my favorite convention up for AfD, I'd be upset too.
Look, if this ends up getting deleted, why don't you copy the page to a user subpage, and keep it until you can find some news coverage to back it up, ok? -- RoninBK T C 05:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I have never been to this convention, or even in the state of New Hampshire, for that matter. My favorite convention is AnimeIowa. Furthermore, as for the references, these are the requirements to say that I have used original research:
* introduces a theory, method of solution, or any other original idea;
It is not being introduced, as it has already been claimed.
* defines or introduces new terms (neologisms), or provides new definitions of existing terms;
Irrelevant here.
* introduces an argument without citing a reliable source who has made that argument in relation to the topic of the article; or
Sources have been cited. One to make the claim, two to back it up.
* introduces an analysis, synthesis, or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis, synthesis, or interpretation to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article.
I didn't come up with the claim, they did.
The two sources provided show that AAC's claim as the only/largest convention is true, by showing that it can not be so far proved false. Importantly, content must be verifiable, not necessarily verified. If I claimed that I was the only Computer Repair Company in the entire state of Iowa, and multiple phonebooks proved it, that would be good enough verification for wikipedia, right? Kopf1988 06:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


  • Comment I want to say 'keep' since it's notable as New Hampshire's (first?) only Anime con as far as I've been able to determine, but given the already-stated near-complete lack of supporting information about it from secondary sources. The only source I could find was Trancelab.com, but it says nothing about the convention other than it happened, and they took pictures. ~ SeanOrange 06:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • The first convention in New Hampshire was Mikkakan in 2001. Mikkakan's wikipedia article was deleted last month. --PatrickD 13:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • That's really bizarre, to delete an article for (what appeared to be) such a significant convention in the area. Such deletions make it difficult to independently verify this sort of information, especially given how fickle the internet can be as a resource for something that people are no longer talking about... Another Anime Convention is still the largest/only New Hampshire con at this moment in time, and it's still ongoing. If these events don't warrant their own individual entries, perhaps we should find a way to merge them into an article about New Hampshire anime conventions, instead of just deleting them? Making the explicit connection to Anime Boston (if sources can be found to support the claim) might also be of some value. ~ SeanOrange 14:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.