Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anonymous (band)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. John254 00:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anonymous (band)

Anonymous (band) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable band who don't meet WP:BAND. Although they were in the Eurovision Song Contest they only finished 12th. They don't have any officially released albums, they've not toured. Given the name it's virtually impossible to do a decent Google search. WebHamster 22:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep According to the Salvem el món article, it charted #3 in the Spanish hitlists, which satisfies criterion #2. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This band took part in the Eurovision Song Contest (which is a sufficient assertion of notability in itself) and charted at #3 in Spain. AecisBrievenbus 23:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment There is no verification that the song charted, and WP:BAND stipulates that they should either "win or be placed" in a major competition. They didn't even make the final and finished twelfth so that criterion isn't met. Assertion of notability only wards off a CSD notice, it does not prevent an AfD. There's no demonstration of notability in the article. There's only one independent source listed and that's borderline for meeting WP:RS. --WebHamster 23:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Additionally they are supposed to have been together since 2004 yet all they have to show for it is 1 album demo, 1 single and a semi-final place at Eurovision. This is not the hallmark of a notable band. --WebHamster 23:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
They were placed in the Eurovision Song Contest. Twelfth in the semi-final, which means a 26th place overall. I withdraw the Spanish #3 for now. AecisBrievenbus 23:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
My interpretation/understanding of "placed" is second, third or fourth, ie in the final. I'd like to see the result of placing a bet on something to be "placed" and then trying to get paid out on something that came in 12th/26th. --WebHamster 00:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that "placed" is by definition vague, and unless we define it clearly (say, only include the top 15 of each ESC), bands like Anonymous will meet the inclusion criteria, even if it's just because the criteria are so broad. As far as the top 3 of the Spanish charts is concerned: it was the PROMUSICAE Top 20. I haven't been able to find the chart itself, since PROMUSICAE appear to have taken old charts offline, but I did find two external sources: ESCToday.com and Eurosong.be. AecisBrievenbus 00:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
"Placed" as described at dictionary.com in the context it is used in WP:BAND is a verb meaning "To be among those who finish a competition or race, especially to finish second". So its definition isn't as vague as you may suppose. --WebHamster 01:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
It is vague in the sense that there's no limit in terms of the position of the participant. Someone who comes 2nd is placed, but so is someone who came 58th. Someone who comes 156th in the general classification of the Tour de France is still placed, even if he's dead last, 5 hours behind the winner. AecisBrievenbus 11:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. An argument that's often been made in relation to the ESC is that it's sort of a "musical Olympics". This band competed at it - thereby being televised around the world - and recorded the best-yet result for their country. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to keep the weasel words out of it, who has made that argument? And who has decided that a "musical Olympics" is no longer a "major music competition"? --WebHamster 01:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I can't find the precise AfD here where someone said it, but I'll keep looking. In relation to your second question, my argument was that because the band competed (and achieved a degree of success) at such a competition, that suggests that it is probably notable, in much the same way as people who compete in major competitions related to their fields tend to be notable. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 02:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
A degree of success? 12th/26th/halfway down the field? I'm sorry if I remain sceptical and somewhat scathing (though not of you personally I might add) of the whole ESC and in particular this 'anonymous' band. This whole article reeks to high-heaven as non-notable. When semantics, hyperbole and vague notions of success and possible references are the main thrust of an article, then that does not strike me as something that is inherently important and/or notable enough for inclusion. They came from the mists of obscurity and it looks like they will return there any time soon. --WebHamster 02:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
"A degree of success", yes. They finished 12th in a field of 28, which is one thing, and recorded Andorra's best result to date at the Contest (possibly best ever, since rumour has it there won't be an Andorran entry in future). I can understand your scepticism, but the two claims I've made here are both eminently verifiable and suggest notability to me. There's also the fact that they were the first punk outfit to compete on the ESC stage, which may or may not contribute, depending on whether that is a "notable first". The same is true of the fact that this was the first Andorran song not to be monolingually in Catalan. Additionally, in simple terms the band represented their country at a major international event. Why does that not equate to notability? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
One example is this article from The Economist (2002): "ALONG with joining the UN, invitations to the Eurovision song contest (a televised musical Olympics much watched in Europe) signalled that the new countries of post-communist Europe had arrived on the international stage." AecisBrievenbus 01:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, not so much an "argument" as a hyperbolic neologism used by a newspaper? Even so, regardless of that, when it comes down to it, it is still a "major music competition" as outlined in WP:BAND, and they still came 12th, they still didn't "place" (by the definition used by millions of gamblers the world over). We're still not past the no album releases, one highly pimped single release. No tours, no awards, bugger all decent press by the looks of it. The common-sense codicil of WP:BAND surely must dictate that as far as musicians go these aren't that much above an X-Factor reject? Not the makings of an encyclopaedic article. --WebHamster 02:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I hate to beat dead horses, but they did place. Twelfth in the semi-final, which is 26th overall. That is a placing in a major competition, because the Eurovision Song Contest is a major competition. Regardless of what "millions of gamblers the world over" make of it. I wouldn't call the term "musical Olympics" a "hyperbolic neologism used by a newspaper", it's more a reliable source attempting to paint a picture for readers who don't know the subject. AecisBrievenbus 11:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.