Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Halman

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Krimpet (talk) 03:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anna Halman

Anna Halman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Prodded few days ago with "Not notable, not encyclopedic tone, poor English, no references...". Creator addressed some of the problems, with the article being more copyedit and having references, however two problems remain: notability and - relate - scope. Being a victim does not make one notable, and Google search for Anna Halman yields 25 results, Ania Halman 214 results. Since I am not following Polish media much, I am not sure if the case was that profund - so I am recommending either deletion of renaming per this case. There are also no reference to prove the statement that "Her death started one of the greatest scandals in Polish educational system in modern times, damaged credit of Polish educational system and opened way for radical school reform from". Comments appreciated. PS. Please note no equivalent article on Polish wiki... PS2. Such article was deleted from pl wiki: pl:Wikipedia:SDU/Anna Halman, as "being a victim does not make one notable".  Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stating that "being a victim does not make one notable" borders on hypocrisy since you ain't got such a reservation while editing Romek Strzałkowski, who was only an accidental victim during Poznań 1956 uprising. greg park avenue 13:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep
    • Their death was very referenced in media in Poland and all east Europe, for example in czech media is referenced as one from the first and most known victims of cyber and sexual bullying in East Europe, two czech common reportage about bullying in Czech republic and Europe cited their case as clasical and common known), influence of their case on polish education system and schools politik is out of question.
    • Problem is, that reference on net are not as Ania Halman or Anna Halman - full name is very rarite, but Ania, Ania H. or Suicide of Ania are not good name for article, IMHO. In google: better is for example Ania + samobójstwo + Gdansk - 42 000 results... Ad "Her death started one of the greatest scandals in Polish educational system in modern times, damaged credit of Polish educational system and opened way for radical school reform from Giertych" for example - [1], [2] and [3] / zero tolerance from Giertzch, [4] Giertych want canceled gymnazja... --Cinik 18:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC) Here is reportage of TV Nova about bullying (from 29. 4. 2007) - in second half of reportage is referenced this case.etc. --Cinik 18:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC) Here is article of reputable czech journalist about cyber-bullying - two worldwide clasical case: Ghyslaina Razy a Anna Halman (Gdaňsk tragedy)... Owerwhelming majority works about kyberbullying in czech language cited this case as clasical. This case was cytalyzer of increased interest about kyber-bullying in Poland, Czech republic, Slowakei and others cantries... --Cinik 04:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Well-referenced article and notable enough (received coverage in BBC and almost every large Polish newspaper). As user Piotrus publishes articles on history of Russian-Soviet war entitled no less than "Soviet Army atrocities", I believe that this is his own bias and example of tendentious editing. User Piotrus, besides, was supporting less sourced articles (like Internet brigades on AfD which contained only allegations just because they suited to his nationalist views. Vlad fedorov 18:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
For God's sake, even Polish president Lech Kaczynski lighted up a znicz on Ania Halman tomb [5]. Vlad fedorov 02:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep but rename as Anna Halman case or something like that. The case seems to be notable. One should provide more explanations in the article. How this related to cyber bullying? Words about the greatest scandals in Polish educational system in modern times, damaged credit of Polish educational system seem to be POVish. Could be formulated better.Biophys 20:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The name isn't used in Polish media. I have read tens of texts about the case and watched TV discussions but I don't remeber the name being ever used. So I believe that the article should be renamed the way it doesn't include the last name.Xx236 10:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, but what is good name? Suicide of Ania? Gdansk tragedy? --Cinik 13:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, how do media refer to this? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Suicide of Ania, Gdansk tragedy, Suicide of ?14? schoolgirls...
  • Delete - not notable(maybe notable, but not enought to be here), deleted even on polish Wikipedia. Herr Kriss 17:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, strong POV, article was deleted from pl wiki. Szwedzki 17:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
IMHO is evident, it is notable enought, as I argue above. And according pl: Voting on pl. wikipedia was probably about very other form of article. I see there no significant discusion about notability of article. --Cinik 18:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Deletion is not logical; it is known cause, in Poland and neighbouring countries. Maybe not in anglophonic world, that could make this article subject of deletion. The references do exist (but maybe not english), so I think we could let it here. --Aktron (t|c) 18:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - It needs clean-up, references and rename as Anna Halman case but the kernel of the article is ok. Where is POV? Miraceti 18:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Here is problem. Big scandal is big not if somebody cry this is the bigist scandal in the world. It is big, if it is a big problem, if it have a big consequences and if it is common known. But it is possible, I will find reference for this statement too. :-) --Cinik 21:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename, per Miraceti. It is rare that a story from Poland makes BBC News, hence notable. The article needs a great deal of improving and NPOV, however. Balcer 22:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, -jkb- 12:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC); notable, referenced, encyclopedic, in Poland a media event of huge impact; rename if you want, that is OK
  • Strong keep - this is a very sad but true story, well documented and unpretentiously written, omitting many gruesome details and speculations, however, some Polish dorky "activists" would like this story to ground it, because it doesn't fit their image they so shamelessly trying to impose on you. They call themselves Law and Justice (PiS), yet they gave the perpetrators of the statutory rape just a slap on a wrist - three months in juvenile detention center, while Ania after having been totally humiliated before all class, commited suicide hanging herself on a skipping rope. These happenings may occur sometimes in jail, never in school, still the authorities looked the other way and now they trying to sweep this story under rug with little help of some Polish wikipedians, that's a shame. You can compare this story only with O.J. Simpson case, who also got away with manslaughter. greg park avenue 18:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Please! article was deleted from pl wiki is total misguided and valueless argument (IMHO), but I thing It will be no good for this discussion, If we will speculate about motivation and political tendencies of participants. --Cinik 13:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
      • U cannot separate politics from reality when dealing with Poles. The guy who AfDed your article, claims on his user page that he knows how to deal with Poles, which I find pretty offensive. I almost feel like a savage from Amazon, if there were such a people over there, what I doubt. But they in Poland think like that, we call it Dulska morality, something u may find in "I shot the sheriff" by Bob Marley or "The badge" by George Harrison. The double standards meaning "laundry your dirty clothes behind closed doors". This guy also AfDed my article Mundana Quartet for the same wrong reasons, and of course it was deleted from Polish wiki like yours was, in a heated and politically motivated discussion, which had nothing to do with wikipedia standards. He also created a new category and put your and my article in the same bag as shredder fodder, that's how I found you. But now the cat is out of bag. Besides, thank you for claiming Ania. It's a shame for all us few tolerant Poles that a foreigner did that. greg park avenue 16:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I thing Ania will have article on pl.wiki... :-) And Mundana Quartet too... :-) Nobody can ignore reality indef. :-) --Cinik 16:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.